simple Hi-Tek coating

[slide]

Those testers are not precise enough. I tried countless times with mine. You don't know when you are still in the hi-tek or have broken thru to the lead.I wish it was that easy. I tried measuring a plain bullet and then measuring each coat which turned out to be two thousands thick. Under magnifacation I marked two thousands on my hardness tester. Each measurement was different. Didn't lend itself to accuracy. Will keep trying!

[HI-TEK]

Those testers are not precise enough. I tried countless times with mine. You don't know when you are still in the hi-tek or have broken thru to the lead.I wish it was that easy. I tried measuring a plain bullet and then measuring each coat which turned out to be two thousands thick. Under magnifacation I marked two thousands on my hardness tester. Each measurement was different. Didn't lend itself to accuracy. Will keep trying!

Slide,
as you have discovered, the thick lump of HI-TEK is very brittle and pressure from a penetrometer type test gauge will shatter test piece.

Petander seems to have measured some differences with and without coating. With coating it was 12BHN and same alloy without coating was 10 BHN. There seemed an increase of 2BHN on surface hardness of coated alloy.

I refer back to my previously posted comparison for HI-TEK (I don't know if it is directly relevant, but may be indicative), quote, "if you try to do that with a piece of glass say 1/4 inch thick, the glass will shatter, and if you had that same glass in micron thickness, it will flex."
This is what seems to be with Hi-Tek .

There may be a hardness test for plastics/polymers that use a different type of tester. I don't know if another hardness tester can be directly converted to BHN results.

[slide]

I just thought of something. I know a guy that has a powder coat shop. He has a gizmo that he tests powdercoat with. A sample is placed under this thing and then dropped. Looks like there is a weight on it. After testing he look for cracks and such things. I f you put a cube of hi-tek under that thing maybe it might tell us something. I will try and get the proper name for it. Joe, you probably know what I am talking about. Could be a wild goose chase.

[slide]

Looks like they call it an impact tester. I will ask if I can try it.

[Stephen Cohen]

I am sure that a 2BHN gain would play some part in good result one gets but I believe there are many other attributes with Hi-Tek that surpass a 2BHN gain. Recently I cast a batch of pure lead bullets Lee 125gr with just a small amount of tin added to help fill out, and while very soft they performed as well as my usual castings, the pistol used was a 6'' 686 and load was 7.4gr AP 70 so the tester told. I don't believe it is overly hard to get good performance in a pistol using Hi-Tek. Loads that would lead the muzzle end of a pistol using old style lubes would not lead using Hi-Tek. Where Hi-Tek performance really shines in my view is in rifle loads, I don't believe I ever managed to produce a rifle load that did not produce some leading when using the old style lubes at relatively low velocity. The longer barrels of rifles almost guaranteed the lube would run out before the bullet exited and leading would result, while I know some have found ways to alleviate this too a degree it was never my luck to do so until I started using Hi-Tek. To me the point of using a rifle is the extra velocity and power one gets even when using pistol cartridges and this coating makes that so much easier to do with much less mess while maintaining accuracy. If my NT Buffalo hunt comes off this year I will be using Joe's slick friction modified heat resisting magic elixir to coat the cast I will be using as I know I can drive them hard with accuracy. Regards Stephen

[slide]

I agree 100%. I have been experimenting off and on with 223 and hi-tek. I had a little trouble with leading but when I started using A.T.M. leading went away. Have you did any testing with and without gas checks? It is on my list. With all the rain we have been getting the range is underwater in spots. The main problem is the range sets right on the wa****a river. and snakes come up and get in the buildings.You have got to be watchful.

[Petander]

With these testers,everything is easily fluctuating. I've used mine since 2002,you need bullets of the right size (38 is good) and you need to place them straight for uniform readings. Some folks hate Saeco testers because of that, you really need a touch

I routinely test every batch I cast. Hi Tek has always read a little more than plain bullets from the same batch... but like many folks have found out, we can use softer alloys now. So coating sort of has a "hardening" effect.

[Stephen Cohen]

slide most of my cast are shot checkless the exception is the 458wm it just shoots better with checks, I have a batch of Lee 150gr, 160gr, !70gr and 180gr that are checked and waiting for testing. I have not done much testing with cast under 357 calibre. I have to agree with Petander that fit is still king and undersized bullet will not shoot as accurately even if coated with Hi-Tek, but an undersized bullet can be coated again and taken to the correct diameter. I have found that in my guns accuracy suffers badly if I try to seat and crimp in one operation and many of my fellow shooters have found the same, this is not a problem as I have always found it better to crimp in another operation if needed. I don't use checks for the 460SW and accuracy is outstanding it seems only the 458 needs checks, all others are plain base with velocity and accuracy to 2,400fps. Regards Stephen

[slide]

Thanks Stephen and Petander. All good points.

[HI-TEK]

Looks like they call it an impact tester. I will ask if I can try it.

Slide,
you are correct, what is used by powder coaters is an impact tester. It is used to determine if baked coating will crack or split or come off surfaces after baking. It is similar to smash test as used with coated cast. I don't think it is a hardness tester.

[slide]

OK, I thought of something else. Quite a few of the guys are using art pencils to test the bhn of lead, both on ingots and bullets.. These pencils have different hardness levels and you start out low and work your way up until you find one that will scribe the lead. That is your bhn. I could see a problem with using the same pressure everytime and not get past the coating and down into the lead. I think it would be easier scribing a line and looking at it than punching a hole. I never could tell where I was with the hardness tester. What do you think?

[Tazza]

That seems like a plausible idea, unless the coating can develop a hard outer crust that would not scratch the way you hoped to be able to do.

[Stephen Cohen]

Tazza to prove your point I just got two identical hard cast one coated the other not, using a dental pick I used what I would say as light pressure and cut a groove in the uncoated lead. I bent the dental pick trying to scratch the Hi-Tek coating. I guess I am satisfied the coating is bloody hard regardless of what the BHN may be. In the early days when I first started coating my own I had many who refused to put Hi-Tek through their barrels because of how hard it was, but hard has many meanings to many people. Regards Stephen

[slide]

These pencils go up to 5 to 28 bhn. You have to sharpen them a certain way. We'll give it a go!

[HI-TEK]

These pencils go up to 5 to 28 bhn. You have to sharpen them a certain way. We'll give it a go!

Slide,
Brilliant idea, and hope it works.
Pencil hardness has been around for years.
My rough guess is, that the BHN hardness of HI-TEK is about 35-40.
I don't know if there are pencils that hard.
Best is try and see.... Hope it works out.

Just had a thought, what is hardness of Copper used as Jackets on soft Lead?
Same question can be asked for Electroplated Copper as used on Lead.

[HI-TEK]

Tazza
I guess I am satisfied the coating is bloody hard regardless of what the BHN may be. In the early days when I first started coating my own I had many who refused to put Hi-Tek through their barrels because of how hard it was, but hard has many meanings to many people. Regards Stephen

Stephen,
This HI-TEK coating is a contradiction in itself.
It is hard, but as used, it deforms with smash test and large down sizing without breaking.
What is totally different is, that the coating self lubricates, and, also offers resistance for correct pressure build up which is needed for speed and accuracy.

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, contradiction to itself is a good way to describe Hi-Tek, Hard yet malleable when tested with hammer, self lubricating, and resistance as pointed out. There lays the problem of testing the BHN, on what product do we put it in order to test the BHN. I think the only way to test BHN would be to coat something that the coating could be peeled from, perhaps zink sheeting, if the coating could be built up enough maybe then it could be tested. I may be wrong but I feel that even if BHN can be measured it will be of little use to us as casters because of the contradiction of Hi-Tek itself. Bit like the air we breath, we know its there but can't see it. I doubt the pencil test will work as I think Hi-Tek is way harder than any pencil, of cause I could be wrong. Regards Stephen

[slide]

Stephen, I agree 100%. But, when I get something on my mind I have to keep trying. Even if we find out what purpose will it serve? We will have learned a little more. Maybe part of the selling point. I know powder coaters like powder coat because they can shoot a softer alloy because of the bhn of powder coat. Maybe that was what I was thinking of. I will keep trying.

[HI-TEK]

I think the only way to test BHN would be to coat something that the coating could be peeled from, perhaps zinc sheeting, if the coating could be built up enough maybe then it could be tested. I may be wrong but I feel that even if BHN can be measured it will be of little use to us as casters because of the contradiction of Hi-Tek itself. Bit like the air we breath, we know its there but can't see it. I doubt the pencil test will work as I think Hi-Tek is way harder than any pencil, of cause I could be wrong. Regards Stephen

Stephen
I had suggested to Slide to fill a Silicone small ice tray pocket with powder. Then bake it for at least 10 minutes or more. Time did not matter. I was hoping for a lump thick enough to test hardness. If I recall correctly, when trying to remove the finished baked product, it shattered.
I don't know all the details of dimensions after baking. I was hoping that we may get about a 1/4 inch thick fused solid that can be BHN tested.
What is of concern is, that BHN test tool is essentially a penetrometer. Pressure to force test point into baked Hi-Tek may simply shatter the lump.
I hope that Slide has some success..


Slide, you mentioned BHN of powder coating. What is the BHN of powder coat that has convinced users of suitability?

Any one has any information about BHN hardness of
1. Powder Coat
2. Copper Jacket metal
3. Copper Plating metal, after deposition.

[Stephen Cohen]

Slide, I hope you work out how to do it, if it wasn't for those like you who hate to give up, we would still be chucking rocks. Regards Stephen