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Thread: simple Hi-Tek coating

  1. #9361
    Boolit Mold
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    Great. Thanks

  2. #9362
    Boolit Master dikman's Avatar
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    It can be a bit hit-or-miss. I had some that was maybe 18 months old. I added extra acetone and the bronze still worked ok, although it came out darker, the Gunmetal flaked badly, although in all fairness I think I may not have thinned it enough and the coats were probably too thick, and the Zombie Green still worked.
    I figure I was probably pushing it a bit but hey, that's how we learn.

  3. #9363
    Boolit Master Avenger442's Avatar
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    Just used some orange/burnt orange that was mixed about six months ago stored in my basement that is mostly cool in the summer. Worked OK as far as coating. But as noted earlier the color was significantly darker. Haven't shot any yet. In the past I have used coatings both liquid based and the powder that have performed at the range after sitting over six months. So I don't expect any problems.


    Joe
    Is there any reason that I couldn't use the coating with no color in it or maybe just the coating with the metallic and no color? What would you see on a wipe test?
    While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..

  4. #9364
    Boolit Master dikman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger442 View Post
    What would you see on a wipe test?
    Not a lot if there's no colour. Maybe it could be called Invisible Colour.

  5. #9365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger442 View Post
    Joe
    Is there any reason that I couldn't use the coating with no color in it or maybe just the coating with the metallic and no color? What would you see on a wipe test?
    Avenger,
    the coatings can be used without colour. As some ingredients that become part of the overall performance may also settle/separate.
    Some of the Metallics also have their own particular colour, and are also there to
    1. mechanically reinforce the baked film,
    2. to assist/contribute towards lubrication,
    3. improve heat reflectance,
    4. improve alloy to bore separation,
    5. and improve mechanical strength.
    If you remove these, the coating may work OK, but may also have increased resistance when sizing. I cannot predict what will happen with other parameters. It is a suck and see.

    After bake, all coatings with or without colour should pass all solvent wipe tests.
    The solvent test was specifically aimed at ensuring the a coating was adequately baked before applying subsequent coats.
    If baking was not adequate, when trying to coat over this, the solvents contained in next coat will start to act as a paint stripper.
    This will cause a mess, lumpy and irregular finish.
    The solvent test on its own, will show up under baked coating, as it will act like a paint stripper.
    Solvent test is simpler way to show up baking problems, and it wont waste the coating you are trying to apply to an under cured previous coat.

    Hope I answered your questions adequately.

  6. #9366
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    Quick question about the heat. I have an oven that I am using a PID temp controller on my oven. I set it for 410 degrees and it swings up past 420 sometimes. I know the bullets have to hit a certain temp for a certain amount of time and extra time cannot hurt the bullet coating but can extra temperature affect the bullet adhesion on the bullet. In other words is it better to make sure the oven doesn't go over 400 degrees and just cook the bullet longer rather than have the oven set higher to insure the bullets get cooked good enough in say 15 minutes.

    Simple question: Can you bake at too high of a temperature?

  7. #9367
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    Your temp is fine.
    A higher temp will only darken the baked colour.

    My pid controlled converted wall oven has a set point of 200 deg C, but will get to 204 Deg C at the end of the 7 minute bake time. no issue.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  8. #9368
    Boolit Master dikman's Avatar
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    In my experience, yes. I have baked Gunmetal at around 460 (to get the colour I wanted) and it worked fine, but my very first batch was directly under the top element and failed miserably. I don't know what the temp was in that position but I figure it was high as the radiant heat from the element didn't have time to circulate before heating the boolits.
    At the temps you're talking about there shouldn't be any problems, but why not just set it to 400? Any swing past that will be insignificant.

  9. #9369
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    Quote Originally Posted by flybyjohn View Post
    Quick question about the heat. I have an oven that I am using a PID temp controller on my oven. I set it for 410 degrees and it swings up past 420 sometimes. I know the bullets have to hit a certain temp for a certain amount of time and extra time cannot hurt the bullet coating but can extra temperature affect the bullet adhesion on the bullet. In other words is it better to make sure the oven doesn't go over 400 degrees and just cook the bullet longer rather than have the oven set higher to insure the bullets get cooked good enough in say 15 minutes.

    Simple question: Can you bake at too high of a temperature?

    Your question" can extra temperature affect the bullet adhesion on the bullet.
    The Answer is NO.

    Aside from making colour darker, extra heat will not affect adhesion. NOT adequate drying combined with using too much first coating affects adhesion.

    In other words is it better to make sure the oven doesn't go over 400 degrees and just cook the bullet longer rather than have the oven set higher to insure the bullets get cooked good enough in say 15 minutes.

    Simple question: Can you bake at too high of a temperature?[/QUOTE]



    If your oven goes over 200C (400F), all you have to do is cook for less time.
    What is important is not so much oven temperature, but you must monitor loaded alloy temperature.
    You only have to get the projectiles to 180C, and once they get to that temperature, it must stay there for another 3 minutes.
    A hotter oven gets them to 180C faster.
    If your oven is at 420F the projectiles will get to 180C much more quickly, and will over cook making them darker. But this extra baking wont affect adhesion.

  10. #9370
    Boolit Buddy benellinut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HI-TEK View Post
    Your question" can extra temperature affect the bullet adhesion on the bullet.
    The Answer is NO.

    Aside from making colour darker, extra heat will not affect adhesion. NOT adequate drying combined with using too much first coating affects adhesion.

    In other words is it better to make sure the oven doesn't go over 400 degrees and just cook the bullet longer rather than have the oven set higher to insure the bullets get cooked good enough in say 15 minutes.

    Simple question: Can you bake at too high of a temperature?



    If your oven goes over 200C (400F), all you have to do is cook for less time.
    What is important is not so much oven temperature, but you must monitor loaded alloy temperature.
    You only have to get the projectiles to 180C, and once they get to that temperature, it must stay there for another 3 minutes.
    A hotter oven gets them to 180C faster.
    If your oven is at 420F the projectiles will get to 180C much more quickly, and will over cook making them darker. But this extra baking wont affect adhesion.
    I've seen you repeat the temp of the alloy is the key, got me thinking. I worked as a professional auto tech for 25 years, I have a Fluke multimeter I used for many different uses, one of the functions was the ability to test temperatures with the use of K thermocouple's and an adapter to plug it into the meter. A bulb thermocouple came with the meter I bought, it was handy for testing temps of fluids as well as being able to reach into small places past parts, hoses and wire harness to touch the sides of engines in different spots. This is the one that came with my meter, https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-80TK-Th.../dp/B0023FUI3Y

    My thought is, couldn't you drill a hole in the center of a bullet, insert the thermocouple and use it to test alloy temperatures while baking? Why wouldn't this work? You'd want to make the hole that the bulb would just slip into, without force enough to damage the bulb end but you want to make sure the bulb touches the metal and (I would think) with the bulb as near the center of mass as possible. Guess you could get a few thermocouple's make a few probed bullets, set these at different spots on a tray and monitor the temp of the alloy as it bakes, don't need multiple meters, just plug and unplug the different probes in the same meter, maybe monitor one near the center then once it comes to temp check the others and see where they are at, or check them every minuet or two.

    This type has a high temp coating on the wire lead and the wire is small and bendable, you can snake the wire in and close an oven door on these, it's how I've checked the oven for the wife when she thought it was off. You can get cheaper thermocouple's but I'd compare them with a good known thermocouple to make sure they are accurate. I wouldn't spend that much on a Fluke brand just for this purpose, but I have bought cheaper K thermocouple's off amazon and I use my Fluke to check those for accuracy before using them in my PDI.
    Be careful what you wish for!

  11. #9371
    Boolit Master
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    That is what I do. I think Ausglock came up with the idea a couple years ago. It works great.!
    Boolits !!!!! Does that mean what I think it do? It do!

  12. #9372
    Boolit Buddy benellinut's Avatar
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    Here's a few from Amazon, four channel with the probes, read all four at once, around $30-$34 shipped with Prime. They all look the same with different brand names, probably made at the same Chinese manufacturer. Might order one and do comparison checks with my Fluke, if it's not accurate just return it. Two of these offer a four year protection plan from Square Trade for $6, to me it's worth it with some of these cheap Chinese products.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073P5MZ3J
    https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Prime.../dp/B0142HFA06
    https://www.amazon.com/Leaton-Thermo.../dp/B06XC6T8PX

    Last summer I bought a 120 to 12 volt control box to run the LED lights that keeps my flag pole lite all night, I added that Square Trade two year extended protection plan to it for $3. It failed after five months, it was still under the one year factory warranty but it said I'd have to pay the return shipping to ship it back. First I called the 800 number for the protection plan because it said they would cover any return shipping costs, without question the sent me a check for $15. Next I called the manufacture about the failed unit, they asked the model number and my address and said they'd ship a new one out the next day, I asked where they wanted the old one sent and they told me no need to return it. That worked out well...
    Be careful what you wish for!

  13. #9373
    Boolit Mold
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    great . Thanks.....

  14. #9374
    Boolit Master Avenger442's Avatar
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    Guys
    Slide and I may be working on a new comparison project together. This time in handgun. We are still not sure who is going to do the shooting. Slide lost his place to shoot So if any of you guys live out near him PM him if you can help him out. Kind of new territory for me. I do shoot several handguns. But I probably shoot 10 rounds of rifle for every round of handgun I shoot.

    benellinut
    Completely off the subject here. But some manufacturers and suppliers are just great when their product fails or they mess up and others are not. It is a pleasure when you find one like the one you found. I ordered $300 plus of security system from Simply Safe a few years ago. There was a mix up in shipping and I ended up with someone's order that was not even close to what I ordered and it was a month late. It seems my order went to Nevada. Called them up and not only did they tell me to keep that order but sent the missing parts and didn't charge me anything. Not even the first $300. I called them because they had not taken the payment out of my account and the guy said no charge. Their stuff works great and of course I recommend them. However Sears is not that way. They will get money out of you anyway they can has been my experience. I had a warranty on a Craftsman riding mower, more expensive model, that had several problems during the warranty period. Had several factory defects. One of which was the trans mounting. The trans mounting broke away from the trans, for the third time, really messing up the linkage. They said that the trans would have to be replaced because the threaded hole in the trans had been destroyed. But there was a problem, the trans was no longer available. Found a new trans, exact model, on the web by the way. But they said I would have to buy a new mower. Then wanted to charge me $100 for them telling me they couldn't fix it. I did what I probably should have done in the first place. Straightened out the linkage tapped a new hole in the trans put everything back together and mowed my yard. Still have that mower even though I have to fix it sometimes two or three times a year. Great Briggs and Stratton engine and a Dana trans. But the rest is (you fill in the expletive).

    By the way, still looking for a mower manufacturer that sells riding mowers that will last. Haven't found one yet. PM me if you have a suggestion. Please don't tell me John Deer. Had a 10 year old Cub Cadet that out lasted my brother in laws new John Deer back in the 80s. But Cubs are now the same as Craftsman. And no zero turn with two trans to break.
    Last edited by Avenger442; 12-29-2017 at 11:36 AM. Reason: corrected expletive
    While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..

  15. #9375
    Boolit Master dikman's Avatar
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    Joe, based on what you said earlier in reply to flybyjohn's post, I'd always assumed that there is an upper heat limit at which point the coating will fail to bond. Can you clarify this please, as I'm curious? What is the maximum temp that it has been baked at?

  16. #9376
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    Quote Originally Posted by dikman View Post
    Joe, based on what you said earlier in reply to flybyjohn's post, I'd always assumed that there is an upper heat limit at which point the coating will fail to bond. Can you clarify this please, as I'm curious? What is the maximum temp that it has been baked at?
    I have tried this.
    I baked a tray of 250 135gn RN-BB at 250deg C for 15 minutes using the Kryptonie green powder.
    The prep was as per normal (6mls per coat @ 20gms:100mls mix)
    Air dry and pre-warm with fan heater.
    All passed the smash and wipe tests. The green went dark brown (just like Ernie Dingo's backside)
    I then applied 2 coats of Black K15 over the top. Also baked at the higher temps and time.

    No issues. Nice shiny black.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  17. #9377
    Boolit Master
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    My oven is getting a lot of miles on it now and the thermostat is starting to stick, I set it to 200 deg C but sometimes I it catch it at 220 deg C.

    I guess I am not as worried about the them getting this high, so far the Candy Apple Red is not getting much darker and still works great.

  18. #9378
    Boolit Master Avenger442's Avatar
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    I to have tried intentionally baking hotter and longer to see what would happen. 450 +/- F at 25 min with Gold 1035 just gave me dark Gold 1035. No smash and certainly no wipe issues. Shot just like normal. I have remelted some coated, usually the smash test in with scrap from other things. It just sits on top of the melt at 600+ F and the lead kinda seperates at that point as it becomes liquid. I guess the coating has trouble staying on liquid lead. Joe probably needs to work on that one.
    While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..

  19. #9379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger442 View Post
    5
    " It just sits on top of the melt at 600+ F and the lead kinda seperates at that point as it becomes liquid. I guess the coating has trouble staying on liquid lead. Joe probably needs to work on that one.
    Avenger 442,
    It seems, I have fallen short in trying to ensure that the coating will remain stuck to melted Lead. It is a bad mistake... I now have to punish myself and increase the sizes of my shot glass for the fine Kentucky liquids that I received from Santa.....
    Over Cooked coating.pdf days of cooking..
    Here is more pictures of over cooked coatings. 3 hours at 200C. Kryptonite Green .Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	210727Click image for larger version. 

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  20. #9380
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    Joe, would we get the same results (Just darker boolits) for 15 min @ 250°C / 482C ?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check