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Thread: simple Hi-Tek coating

  1. #10521
    Boolit Buddy glockfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HI-TEK View Post
    The difficulty is, as you know, the scrap Lead industry products are highly sought by home casters for cheap source of metal.
    Proper alloy is much too expensive for people who do a lot of shooting.

    i'm trying to link most tire shops around me, inside the 150KM radius. i'm explaining to them that the lead i'm collecting isn't then spread out in the wild , that my business is green because the lead is then recycled again and again because it can be collected after use in the berms backstops of the shooting ranges people shoot at......it works for some extent,some don't sell to the scrap yards anymore ,waiting for me to pick the used WW up.

    on my side of things i'm gonna have to take some hardness measurements and might have to add super hard to my commercial boolits because even COWW is somehow ''mystery'' as you never know how hard it'll be once turned into boolits.

    the best prices i've found for 92-6-2 is around 3 CDN a pound. it kind of reduce the profit margin quite some,but product consistency is a little better , it allows loading at the top of the loading charts without risking leading and soso accuracy.

    i'd rather be able to produce my commercial boolits with COWW only, but the demand VS COWW supply might drives me toward the foundry . IIRC,trevor walked into the whole process and ended at the foundry too.

  2. #10522
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    Quote Originally Posted by HI-TEK View Post
    Petander,

    Just curious, do you know, what was hardness of your mystery metal that worked with your guns?
    It is 14-16 BHN. I can mix it harder with more monotype but there is no need.

    Now I found out that my "bullet-probe" is not reliable. It shows much less than IR and/or the oven dial itself. Here I'm drying some washed boolits,next I'll bake them at oven dial 200. Because IR reads 200 on the bullets while the other probe says 182.

    I got a bit too scientific on this,again. Now I may have an 40$ "KISS"- oven. Dial 200 and watch the time. Forget all extra probes. I noticed temp didn't drop much when I loaded five kilos of cold bullets in,only to 170.

    I picked up this s/h dual-blower oven today,it's really windy in there. It feels like a high-wattage thing.

    Attachment 226158

  3. #10523
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    I started with mining the berm and collecting wheelweights. But as things got bigger and demand grew, it was costing far more time and money to sort and clean the WW and the range reclaim. The 2,6,92 is currently $6.60 Aud per KG. even at this price, it is still cheaper than the cost of propane. And my time is 100% bullet making, not wasted cleaning scrap. The only thing I clean now is the dross removed from the top of the pots. I melt it down with propane burner, flux like a madman and reclain the alloy out of it. and this gets fed back into the melt.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  4. #10524
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    I mined the berm at my range earlier this year, i got about 300kg, took my dad and I 4-6 hours of digging and sifting, then the next few weekends melting it all down. Thankfully i was able to use a wood fired melting pot to clean it or else the amount of gas i'd have used would have cost more than the lead i got.

    I don't know just how much dirt/lead i took home, but my dad thought it was around 1t, so not bad return from that much raw material. The biggest issue are FMJ ammo that did not split open, they have a nice lead core, but the amount of work to gain access to it is just silly for large scale work.

  5. #10525
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    Commercial is completely different of course but I happened to weigh my propane bottle while cleaning 30 kg of range lead from traps last month.

    It took exactly three kilos of propane. I can make 1000 pcs 45-70 bullets out of it ,except that I won't, I mix it with my old tin-rich WW / monotype alloy to get 2000 bullets.

    For a hobbyist this is good economy,a box of 20 45-70 rounds costs 80 € and up.

  6. #10526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petander View Post
    Commercial is completely different of course but I happened to weigh my propane bottle while cleaning 30 kg of range lead from traps last month.

    It took exactly three kilos of propane. I can make 1000 pcs 45-70 bullets out of it ,except that I won't, I mix it with my old tin-rich WW / monotype alloy to get 2000 bullets.

    For a hobbyist this is good economy,a box of 20 45-70 rounds costs 80 € and up.
    You are spot on, for non commercial it makes sense if you have the time and gear, but commercial, time is money. The hours you spend cleaning lead can be spent casting making you money, even though the raw material costs you more to buy.

    I like the fact people ask me about ammo and ask what projectiles i use, i say they are mine, many people were surprised.

    Some times i wish i could do more, but then i'd spend so much more time in the shed casting, thw wife complains enough now that i spend too much tome doing it now...... Yet she does like spending the money from it, go figure.

  7. #10527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazza View Post

    Some times i wish i could do more, but then i'd spend so much more time in the shed casting, thw wife complains enough now that i spend too much tome doing it now...... Yet she does like spending the money from it, go figure.
    Luckily thre's more time coming all the time.

    Talking about time,It's 3.48 AM and I'm working on green,to get the colour right and pass wipe test without overbaking.

    Attachment 226174

  8. #10528
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    Well I got a major underbaking failure with the new ,supposedly good oven.

    Six kilos of 45-70 bullets back to melt.

    Attachment 226249.

    They fail the acetone wipe test,green was baked to this much bronze,still green on towel:

    Attachment 226250.

    Looks like my readings (same meters,same times) dob't apply to the new oven with very good air circulation. It won't overbake enough,my Mystery Alloy needs overbake. Nice colours always fail,that I already know.

    Attachment 226251.

    Luckily made some 20 kilos of 458s during the weekend before I got the new oven. These are very good.

    Attachment 226252.


    It's been quite a journey to figure out what my alloy needs. Proper baking instructions don't apply,I really need to roast them boolits.

    Underbaking is a little frustrating experience,been here so many times and still did it again.

  9. #10529
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    the ones that fail the wipe test just need to go back in the oven for a second bake. problem fixed.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  10. #10530
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    That is what i was thinking too, but i wasn't sure, so i kept my mouth shut

    Good to hear that extra baking should fix it.

  11. #10531
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    Petander,
    I think that you are having problems with your temperatures or control and air circulation..
    What is most important is, that the dry coated alloy needs to get to 180C and then stay there at 180C or above for about another 3 minutes after reaching 180C. That should be enough to cure coating.
    If your cast is already at 50C, it will take less time inside oven to get alloy to the 180C.
    The important detail with temperatures and time in oven, is that if you increase load into oven, unless you have a mini cyclone inside your oven, and also have adequate heating capacity, the time inside oven will vary with load weights to get load up to the 180C area..
    If you change things, just change one thing at a time, and examine results of that single change. If you change two or more things, you wont know which change caused problems.

  12. #10532
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    Re: Oven load.
    I can bake 2 trays with 2.5KG on each at once in 7 1/2 minutes.
    If I add another tray with another 2.5KG to make 3 trays, I have to increase time to 8 minutes.
    But, I leave the PID temp setting the same.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  13. #10533
    Boolit Master Gremlin460's Avatar
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    How many elements do you have in your "new" oven?
    Do you have anything to "Bank" the heat while opening/closing the door, or to aid in temp restoration after new batch of cold casts have been inserted to oven.

    Yes I just added other possible items into the mix.
    Don't worry about life, no-one gets out alive.

  14. #10534
    Boolit Buddy glockfan's Avatar
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    ^^^^^
    all i know is BBQ brickets help tremendously ; it shorten the recovery time a lot,and the oven temp gets much more stable . 1 or 2 firebrick would do the trick as well.

  15. #10535
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    It's all about my alloy,I can get good bullets in the "old" oven & HCL wash.

    Now did a test: I fluxed like a behemoth to see what I get while making small ingots from the big ones.

    The bullets do not react with HCL! But they react with bleach,bleach is to the right:

    Attachment 226359

    I'm drying those right now to see what happens.

    I understand the toxicity of these liquids and dispose them properly. I also understand that more baking hekps with underbake - BUT when an underbaked first coat goes unnoticed like I did again... Then you can't fix it after putting another coat on.

    I also understand oven overload,I have tried many,many different versions and taken measurements in many ways, almost too many. Measuring actual bullet temps is good,my contaminated alloy likes a quick warming up to baking temp.

    It's my alloy. The "new" oven has a cyclone inside and holds temps real good and even. No PID but dual blowers, my bullet probe temp stays surprisingly steady.

    To be continued.

  16. #10536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausglock View Post
    Re: Oven load.
    I can bake 2 trays with 2.5KG on each at once in 7 1/2 minutes.
    If I add another tray with another 2.5KG to make 3 trays, I have to increase the time to 8 minutes.
    But, I leave the PID temp setting the same.
    2.5 KG = 5.51156 pounds

    Now Don't you guys try 7.5 min bake times in a normal oven!, Trevor's oven is on steroids. Your boolits will fail

    Trevor's oven ==
    Full-size kitchen 220V Convection oven
    Multiple PID controllers
    Bottom of oven lined with heat retaining firebrick that brings the oven back up to temperature faster
    Convection fans are on a separate power supply so they stay on all the time
    My memory is not so good but I think he added another convection fan.
    He pre-warms the boolits before baking


    I can bake 2 - 8-pound trays in a large Oster countertop convection oven (Lined with ceramic BBQ briquettes for heat retention/recovery) in 12 min.
    I haven't tried a shorter bake time because the colors turn out good, they pass the tests and I prefer to have a little margin for error since I've found that most countertop convection ovens temperatures vary with the surrounding temperature unless you have a PID controling them.
    I have the PIDS but just haven't gotten around to installing them, it's easy for me to check the temperature setting with 2 thermometers on the baking shelf and adjust the oven to the proper temp if needed.

  17. #10537
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    My temp drops to 190°C when I load five pounds. Colour starts to darken after seven minutes, old or new oven,all the same. The new one keeps temp in 194-198 by itself and gets there in a minute and a half.

    I just baked five pounds perfectly good gold bullets. Slight overbake in ten minutes. HCL -wash is my saviour.

  18. #10538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausglock View Post
    the ones that fail the wipe test just need to go back in the oven for a second bake. problem fixed.
    Contaminated alloy doesn't work like that. I tried Bleach soak,it turned the bullets brownish as usual. Sort of rusty,oxidized looking. I may have iron in there,and who knows what else.

    I washed the bullets,still not very pretty.

    I then overbaked Zombie green to bronze,ten minutes. Fail wipe. Another 15 minutes. Fail. Another half hour. Fail. Then one hour. Still fail. But it passed the smash test after all that baking.

    Left to right after each bake:

    Attachment 226406.

    HCL wash cleans my WW bullets good and they bake normally. Well,still working on green to stay green but others are doing fine.

  19. #10539
    Boolit Master Avenger442's Avatar
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    Petander
    Are you calling it a failed wipe test because a small amount of color came off on the paper towel?

    I've had this happen with the color dark blue(that is actually a dark green)and a little with one of the blacks. The reply I got back when I asked about it was that the mix I received may have more color in it than was necessary.

    I wish I could go back and look up the photos of a failed wipe test. The coating comes all the way off down to the metal. There is none left just bare lead.

    I'll let Treavor and Joe correct me if I'm wrong but, unless it removes the coating it's not a failed test to me.

    I've shot many that left a little color on the paper towel with no problems.
    While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..

  20. #10540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger442 View Post
    Petander
    Are you calling it a failed wipe test because a small amount of color came off on the paper towel?
    Yes that's what I have had as a standard. No colour. I thought there should be no colour from the acetone test. For example Gold 1035 leaves zero colour. Or Black Cherry. Or Bronze.

    I may be wrong but my early failures were partly because of underbaked bullets. You know the smell when you shoot them, it's the same you get when baking them and they start to "ripen up". I only have this problem with Zombie green. Never glossy, wipes off no matter how I bake. Even FMJ:s wipe off.

    I just coated these good (overbaked gold) bullets with green.

    Attachment 226421.

    Got these nice camo bullets:

    Attachment 226422

    Same bake. But the green wipes off big time. So I bake them for an hour until they are very dark. Still green comes off.

    I then gave them another gold coat and no more wipe fail. Smash passed,too. Sort of confusing because the new gold coat is only masking a problem underneath.

    I'd like to try a different green.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check