simple Hi-Tek coating

[Stephen Cohen]

My mad mates want to try .30 cal in their .300 black out rifles. I have a 230 grain mould from a mad mate to try out, it' made to take gas checks, i hoped to not need to gas check, but it may be needed for rifles, cheaper than jacketed hopefully depending on what gas checks are worth.

I have a Martini Cadet I chambered for the 300 Blackout its a gift for my grandson. That weight of bullet would be subsonic and would not need a gas check buy if you wanted to try some gas checks I could send you a few to try. For all intents the 300 Blackout is a smaller diameter 357 max, in fact I run 357 max shells into the Blackout dies to make rimmed Blackout. Regards Stephen

[Avenger442]

I use clip on wheel weights with a little tin in it for a BHN of 12-14 in my .308 Vanguard and Remington 700. The bullet is a 160gr Lee with gas check. Actual weight is around 165 gr.+/- FPS is 2500+. Three coats 1035 Gold. There is no problem with leading and accuracy is good 1 1/2"- 1" at 100 yards. If I use this bullet without the gas check at anything around the same FPS it will lead the barrel and very bad accuracy. Only tried no gas check once and never got back to trying it at lower FPS. Not sure but probably gas cutting the end of the bullet with no gas check.

Trevor,

I've been meaning to ask this question for a long time of you especially and others on the thread that go for color. When do you start to time the bake?

Keep in mind I'm not using a very expensive set up. But an oven with good air circulation. It is PID controlled. What, in general, the hobbyist would use.
I pre-heat my oven to the bake temp. long enough to also heat up the brick in the bottom. Then I place the load in the oven wait till it recovers to the targeted bake temp. and then start the time. I have been doing this for the 1035 Gold at between 195 and 200C for twelve minutes. That gives me a little darker color. When I was running some test on some other colors I did experiment with lower temps. and times to achieve what you were showing as color.

I've never seen, that I remember, anyone clarify when to start the time. I just guessed that it would start when the oven recovered to temp. I am not only using the PID but a thermometer in the oven to verify temp. I generally over bake since most of the time I don't care about the color but only the performance. But the Tru Blue is going to change that.

The first try was when the oven reached 195C and baked for seven min. That temp and time gave me blue but was not cured enough. Put those back in for another three min. and they were starting to turn a blue green. Going to try a lower bake temp, probably 190C, and ten minutes today to see if I can get the blue and cure. I'm using smaller loads than normal in the oven, around one pound, until I get the color right. Usually use three pound loads. And can baked as much as nine pounds in this oven. Large loads have very little impact on the color and none on cure with the 195 -200C and twelve min.

[Petander]

I find that wheel weight alloy with a little tin added more than enough for my 458 WM and 357 max rifles, I drive 500gr Lee GC at 1,700 fps that enough pain for me and the 357 max 158gr Lee pb at 2, 200fps both group into 1'' at 100mtrs, even my 375 Whelen shoots this alloy at 1,800fps with similar accuracy. I do think the smaller 30 cal down may well need a harder alloy. I must say that my tests have shown uncoated and lube filled cast are a waste of time accuracy wise in my rifles. Regards Stephen

One MOA with cast makes Markku a jealous boy.

We are around the same BHN then, you maybe 12-13. 14-16 or so is good for me 45-70 / 500 S&W / 357 Mag. I load full power. I'm just making that 14 BHN from WW/Pure to save WW which can't be found around here anymore.

Having said that,I just cooked one hour and 460°F for some 25 BHN bullets. Tried them in a Rossi 357 carbine and got much more leading than the same bullet at 14 bhn,same "full" load. I'm bad at pounding or smashing or hammering things into my guns so I can't really slug them... ... I find my size by trying sizes... This Rossi may need a .362 bullet or something. Hard .360 was leading with 50 rounds. Accuracy didn't suffer at that point but too much lead IMO. 14 BHN has been almost clean. Barrel may be as rough as the whole gun... Gun is not mine but may become mine,it's a warranty return problem,not worth sending back to Brazil.

[Ausglock]

Trevor,

I've been meaning to ask this question for a long time of you especially and others on the thread that go for color. When do you start to time the bake?

With the smaller benchtop convection ovens:

I place a tray of bullets on top of the oven and plug it in and turn on.
I wait until the oven gets to temp and starts to cycle on the thermostat.
I place the tray from on top of the oven into the oven and start the timer.
Then place the next tray of bullets on top of the oven to warm for the next into the oven.
12 minutes with a benchtop oven, working this way gives uniform colour.
I have 4 of these benchtop ovens working this way, side by side and very little colour difference.
All ovens have had the thermostats replaced with capillary bulb types and give excellent results.
I have a stand alone digital countdown timer and once every tray is inserted, the timer is started.
this gives 1000 baked per 12 minutes.

[Tazza]

Thanks for the info Stephen, i'll have to just fiddle to see how they perform. They were all to be sub sonic loads, the hope was i could get away without using gas checks, but i thought i heard shooting projectiles made for gas checks without them gave poor accuracy, even at lower speeds. This is something i'm going to just have to test out. They are a little heavier than we wanted, we were wanting about 160 grains

[dikman]

Petander, you don't slug your barrels? I'm surprised, given how much experimenting you obviously do. It's easy, use a pure lead boolit, oil the barrel and ram it down.

Avenger, like Trevor, once the oven is at temp. in go the boolits and on goes the timer. I just assumed everyone did it this way?

[Tazza]

Petander, you don't slug your barrels? I'm surprised, given how much experimenting you obviously do. It's easy, use a pure lead boolit, oil the barrel and ram it down.

Avenger, like Trevor, once the oven is at temp. in go the boolits and on goes the timer. I just assumed everyone did it this way?

I get my oven to temperature, load the trays in, then start the 12 minute timer. I'm mainly running K15 black, so getting the colour right, really isn't an issue

With the 122 red, i get pretty consistent colours using the same method. If i used a lighter colour, i'd need to be far more careful with temperatures. I'd try a slightly lower temperature for longer to cure it, but keep the colour right.

[HI-TEK]

The first try was when the oven reached 195C and baked for seven min. That temp and time gave me blue but was not cured enough. Put those back in for another three min. and they were starting to turn a blue green. Going to try a lower bake temp, probably 190C, and ten minutes today to see if I can get the blue and cure. I'm using smaller loads than normal in the oven, around one pound, until I get the color right. Usually use three pound loads. And can baked as much as nine pounds in this oven. Large loads have very little impact on the color and none on cure with the 195 -200C and twelve min.

Avenger,
For my two bobs worth, I did cover the temperature matters only a few blogs ago.
It seems to me, that majority are fixated on oven temperatures.

How did you determine that it was not cured enough, after baking the Blue?

Again I stress, it is the load temperature in oven that has to be monitored.
Repeat, all Hi-Tek coatings, once they reach 180C will cure within 2 minutes after reaching 180C.

Oven matter;..... Small ovens temperature controls are very poor quality. You can get swings of plus or minus 50C inside the oven. What is being measured, is the "average" air temperatures inside oven, and not the load temperatures.
Repeat...….the load in the oven must get to 180C and stay there or above for about 2 more minutes.

If oven is set to 200C, it is quite possible that the load can get to 200Plus quite quickly, and that is why colours become more damaged or darker that what is required. This is particularly noticeable with the Reds, (and now with the Blue)
The load does not need to get to 200C for the coating to correctly cure.

Trevor has very good set up with controllers, and ovens set at 200C, he has had loads come out of the oven at 205C after 7.5 minutes. He has tweaked his temperatures to better control his load temperatures and produce very even colours between batches.

If ovens are set at 190C, depending on size of the load placed into the oven, it may take a little more time to get that load to 180C.
This is reason why the Load temperature must be monitored.
It is the load temperature at certain point, will decide just how long a particular load will take to get to required 180C. Once load is at 180C, then keep it there for another 2 minutes.

NOTE over baking coatings only changes final colours. It does not affect coating for end use.

[Petander]

Petander, you don't slug your barrels? I'm surprised, given how much experimenting you obviously do. It's easy, use a pure lead boolit, oil the barrel and ram it down.

Sounds easy. I've seen guns were people removed/tried to remove stuck bullets and I've sort of decided I'll never pound anything in my barrels, voluntarily. Ruined barrels,broken stocks,one pistol barrel was drilled...crooked of course. I have it as a reminder how NOT to treat barrels...A gunsmith with proper tools,vices,slugs,rods and presses can determine barrel size for me if necessary.

And I like to shoot the slugs because I will experiment with many (also in-between) sizes anyway. I do check revolver throats to see if a particular gun is a candidate for cast to begin with. In most (revolver) cases the barrel size doesn't matter to me,my bullets (often) being slightly over the throat size.

That Rossi in a pic above would probably shake in pieces with any "pounding". The barrel should be removed at least. And the idea of a metal rod pounding the inside... I'm of great minority here and very wrong but just can't do that. A barrel is a woman.

[Tazza]

I have heard of people using a very low charge and a pile of rags to capture a soft projectile to measure it. The issue is, i get told that if you go too low you can cause pressure spikes, not sure if that's true or not.

I too don't like the idea of pounding a projectile out, only ever do it when i manage to try and fire a round that has no powder in it

[slide]

Avenger442,I sent you a pm.

[Avenger442]

Joe
Acetone on a paper towel and rubbing the bullet for about 30 seconds is how I check for cure. If I get complete removal down to the lead it failed. I have used bullets that just had a little color come off on the towel but didn't remove the coating down to the lead. They shot fine.

Have read all the post and appreciate the replys.

As I said I don't usually care about the color, so. I have a hollow point .357 bullet in my oven right now that has been there through about 30 bake cycles. It is good and dark but have no doubt it would perform if loaded. After it sits there a little longer I'll test it. I believe that Trevor has already done this with no problem.

Petander,
You probably already know this, but you make them too hard the bullet may not obturate and seal of to the barrel to prevent gas cutting.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;4765819]Joe
Acetone on a paper towel and rubbing the bullet for about 30 seconds is how I check for cure. If I get complete removal down to the lead it failed. I have used bullets that just had a little color come off on the towel but didn't remove the coating down to the lead. They shot fine.

Have read all the post and appreciate the replys.

As I said I don't usually care about the color, so. I have a hollow point .357 bullet in my oven right now that has been there through about 30 bake cycles. It is good and dark but have no doubt it would perform if loaded. After it sits there a little longer I'll test it. I believe that Trevor has already done this with no problem.

Avenger,
It may be possible to rub off some fine blisters from coating when using paper towel and it shows up as colour. Paper can abrasive if you continue to rub for 30 seconds.
I have to assume, that solvent test was done after last coat was finished.

With Blue, Trevor posted details, that he baked twice coated product, and oven was set at 190C, and they came out of the oven at 195C after 7 1/2 minutes.
They remained Blue.
I was simply trying to get a message through, that it is more important to monitor the coated cast temperatures inside oven, instead of monitoring oven temperatures.
Monitoring Oven temperatures will not tell user the actual temperature of the load inside the oven.

[Tazza]

You will always have hot spots in an oven, that's why you make sure to tell people to enure the load reaches 180c for at least 2 minutes.

I get slight black marks on my acetone wipe tests, but i know that this is just dust from when they were scooped up after drying, or little bumps on the projectile coming off, nothing to worry about. I did have a failed bake when i messed with my oven temperature and didn't notice, they were under cooked, i could see they didn't look right or sound right when being poured into a bucket from the tray, almost like they were tacky still. Wipe test took them back to shiny metal. Re-cooked and they were perfect.

To coat, I shake and drop out on laminated MDF to dry, then scoop up and put measured amounts on trays to cook, it's a different way than others use, but it works 100% for me.

i cook for 12 minutes at 200c in a house oven, If i go much shorter, it hasn't gotten the load hot enough to cure 100%. The time i tried to put more in each batch, i found that on re-coating that some would look very pale, this was me washing the initial un-cured coat and applying a new coat. Putting fewer on each tray solved this issue.

[HI-TEK]

You will always have hot spots in an oven, that's why you make sure to tell people to enure the load reaches 180c for at least 2 minutes.

Right on Tazza. The other matter is that aside from air temperature in oven, if load is too close to heating elements you get radiant heat going into the load. As a result, the top layer can be over baked and have a different colour to bottom layers as top layer becomes much hotter with the radiant heat .

i cook for 12 minutes at 200c in a house oven, If i go much shorter, it hasn't gotten the load hot enough to cure 100%. The time i tried to put more in each batch, i found that on re-coating that some would look very pale, this was me washing the initial un-cured coat and applying a new coat. Putting fewer on each tray solved this issue.

Again Right on. The solvent test was directly aimed at determining if previous coat was set adequately with baking. Coating with next coat onto under cured previous coat, will simply strip off uncured coating and will make a mess

Using sandwich toaster ovens can work as long as user works out what that oven will cope with, and keep in mind, that once they get good results, simply record details that worked, and reproduce it.

[dikman]

Petander, I use a steel rod with a brass tip screwed on the end and a nylon guide at the muzzle, so no steel-to-steel contact. Ever. And yes, I've had to use them with the occasional stuck round due to low/missing powder.

[Stephen Cohen]

Thanks for the info Stephen, i'll have to just fiddle to see how they perform. They were all to be sub sonic loads, the hope was i could get away without using gas checks, but i thought i heard shooting projectiles made for gas checks without them gave poor accuracy, even at lower speeds. This is something i'm going to just have to test out. They are a little heavier than we wanted, we were wanting about 160 grains

I have several 30 calibre moulds in the 160 to 200 grain range if your stuck for some. I have shot gas check design minus check with no problems, the only exception to that rule is my 458 WM it just shoots way better with checks as does a mates 458 WM. My brother shoots my 320gr .452 plain base cast in his 460 SW revolver at just under 2,000 fps no leading and great accuracy. I don't put all these great results down to my outstanding casting skill, I thank the Hi-Tek gods as that is why I have great results. Regards Stephen

[Petander]

Petander, I use a steel rod with a brass tip screwed on the end and a nylon guide at the muzzle, so no steel-to-steel contact. Ever. And yes, I've had to use them with the occasional stuck round due to low/missing powder.

Me too,similar rods and VFG felt wads. Bearings in the handles,too.

A stuck bullet can often be removed by dropping the rod from 1" height to the bullet base , instead of "pounding". Light tapping lets the bullet move in the groove instead of being hammered tighter,straight.

Since discovering Hi Tek, I don't use gas checks either. Having said that, I just got a gc mold today.

[Tazza]

I have several 30 calibre moulds in the 160 to 200 grain range if your stuck for some. I have shot gas check design minus check with no problems, the only exception to that rule is my 458 WM it just shoots way better with checks as does a mates 458 WM. My brother shoots my 320gr .452 plain base cast in his 460 SW revolver at just under 2,000 fps no leading and great accuracy. I don't put all these great results down to my outstanding casting skill, I thank the Hi-Tek gods as that is why I have great results. Regards Stephen

Glad that you have had good results from running projectiles made for gas checks without them and they shoot just fine, i'll get some of these cast over Xmas to see how they go with and without gas checks. I don't think they will be used out to really long distances, so if they are not spot on, it's not too horrible. My mad mate said he is running cheap jacketed at about 25c each, but if cast works, that will cut it down even more. Just means we can shoot it more for less

[Petander]

Glad that you have had good results from running projectiles made for gas checks without them and they shoot just fine, i'll get some of these cast over Xmas to see how they go with and without gas checks. I don't think they will be used out to really long distances, so if they are not spot on, it's not too horrible. My mad mate said he is running cheap jacketed at about 25c each, but if cast works, that will cut it down even more. Just means we can shoot it more for less

Following.

I'm going to compare no gc / gc in revolvers with the above bullet.