1893 Spanish Mauser Question

[azrednek]

I have a 1950's Spanish Mauser in 8MM and had the same problem. Following a suggestion I got some where on the net. I went out and put over a 100 rds through it. Afterward I quickly and easily cleaned up the bore. At the range I used Windex to remove the residue from the corrosive primers. At home using Hoppes #9 and a brush the bore was easily cleaned. Don't know if it will work with yours but it might be worth a try.

[Dutchman]

I'm not sure about this, but I believe they thread into a muzzle cap to serve as a handle. which ones? I have no idea, I was hoping that you would know.

Well, I do have an idea and I told you. Many Mauser cleaning rods screw into another cleaning rod to make them long enough to clean the bore. The German K98k is like that but literally dozens of other Mauser models are designed to do the same thing. This is why many of them have 11" to 12" cleaning rods.

Dutch

[Nickle]

The Americans obviously won it, but it pointed out hte shortcomings of the Krag. Krag rifles would have probably worked out fine in a battle against light cavalry armed with a hodge podge of equipment that was slow to reload. After all, military developments are all about fighting the last war, not the next one.

[Multigunner]

The Krag rifles worked fine. The advantages of the 93 Mauser have been over blown because many U S Troops in Cuba were still armed with Trap Door Springfields with Black Powder cartridges.
Due to terrain there were not that many places where the flatter trajectory of the 7X57 compared to the .30-40 made any difference.
The static defense of hill top earthworks put the range advantage to the defenders, but they still lost.

[Nickle]

In fairness to the OP, we've up and accidentally hijacked this thread into a discussion on Krags.

So, to answer the questions, here's my suggestions:

First, plug and soak the bore.

Second, clean out first with your regular bore cleaner, then try to copper solvent.

Do NOT use copper solvent like Sweets on a bronze (or any other type of copper) bore brush.

Just wet a patch, and run it through the bore. Let it sit a couple of minutes. That's 2 or 3, not 15 or 20. Do NOT let it sit longer than say 5 minutes. It is said to damage your bore if it sits too long. Interaction with air is my guess. I don't try it long, won't recommend it.

If you replace the barrel, I'd go with an aftermarket barrel over a take off. The cost will offset with the gunsmithing, unless you fit the barrel yourself. You should be able to finish the chamber by hand. Now, I use a lathe, but then, I do my own smithing, too.

[azrednek]

The Spaniards did whoop-butt. The numbers vary by where you read the history. Roosevelt charged up San Juan Hill with 15,000 men defended by 750 Spaniards. The US had apx 1500 killed or wounded casualties.

[Multigunner]

A dug in enemy with clear field of fire and height advantage will most often inflict heavy casualties on an attacking force.

Back to this rifles fouling problem.
Cupro Nickel fouling was very difficult to remove, so many old military rifles ended up with layer upon layer of metal fouling.

In test firing to judge the effect of excessive metal fouling on the 1903 Springfield they found that after thick layers of metal fouling were removed the rifle was often less accurate than when fouled and far less accurate than when new. The diameter of the thoroughly cleaned bore was found to have increased.
This could be one reason why some Mauser have over sized bores.

The British used very aggressive cleaning methods to remove metal fouling, including annealed iron wire mesh on the pull through patch.

[azrednek]

In test firing to judge the effect of excessive metal fouling on the 1903 Springfield they found that after thick layers of metal fouling were removed the rifle was often less accurate than when fouled and far less accurate than when new. The diameter of the thoroughly cleaned bore was found to have increased.
This could be one reason why some Mauser have over sized bores.

With my 1950's 8MM Spanish Mauser I didn't see anything significant either better or worse as far as the mediocre shot to shot accuracy. I did how ever feel better having a bore I could clean without a never ending pile of green colored patches.

[Multigunner]

I just remembered I have an old Gun Digest when a full sized reprint of the Mauser catalog for the 1893 Mauser.
I'll dig it up later and see if it has any useful information.
I remember that the last time I looked through that book there were a lot of German words, I don't remember if it also has English translations. Some extremely well done illustrations and ballistic charts that should be of interest.

[1500FPS]

A dug in enemy with clear field of fire and height advantage will most often inflict heavy casualties on an attacking force.

Back to this rifles fouling problem.
Cupro Nickel fouling was very difficult to remove, so many old military rifles ended up with layer upon layer of metal fouling.

In test firing to judge the effect of excessive metal fouling on the 1903 Springfield they found that after thick layers of metal fouling were removed the rifle was often less accurate than when fouled and far less accurate than when new. The diameter of the thoroughly cleaned bore was found to have increased.
This could be one reason why some Mauser have over sized bores.

The British used very aggressive cleaning methods to remove metal fouling, including annealed iron wire mesh on the pull through patch.

Green Beret sniping instructor on gun cleaning. They train with match grade AR 15s.

- Best points:

- a barrel cleaned down to bare metal takes at least 20 rounds, sometimes more, to refill the bore with copper.

- the "clean barrel will typically shoot 1.5 MOA, after being "recoppered", it will shoot 1/2 MOA.

- the only time they remove copper is when starting a fresh training class, so that everyone starts out equally handicapped.

- they clean rifles once/ week to remove powder and carbon fouling ONLY.

- copper is never removed unless accuracy goes to h e double l. He said usually that does not help and it's usually new barrel time. The AR he was shooting had 5000 rounds down the tube, had never been "copper scrubbed out" and was still a 1/2 MOA rifle.

Bottom line: A match quality barrel fed top grade ammo does not need the bore ever cleaned to bare metal. Get out the powder fouling and it will shoot great a long, long time.

If you have a **** barrel, that accumulates chunks of jacket material, give fire lapping a try and/or get a new tube.

As well as using a quality one piece rod and bore guide, he removed the jag before withdrawing the rod. 5 wet patches, 10 dry, 5 more wet, 10 dry, clean the chamber and bolt assembly and back to rock and roll.

No nasty brushes, no abrasives. It appeared he was using Bore Tech C4 carbon remover and I'm guessing they use Bore Tech CU+2 when they want to get down to bare metal.

If you spend the extra money (a lot) to get your barrel Nitrided, life gets even easier and the barrel will probably outlast you.

Navy Seals said the same thing.

[Smokepole50]

I would take it out and shoot it, providing the head space checks out good. Put 20-30 rounds down the pipe and then scrub it good with JB bore paste. You don't need to remove all the cupro-nickle fouling and you probably never will unless you do the reverse plating bore cleaning trick that will most likely reveal a pitted bore under all the metal fouling.

[JIMinPHX]

When cleaning old neglected war horses for the first time, I sometimes resort to the battery, metal rod & ammonia trick. It does about a month's worth of metal cleaning in a few hours. Outers used to sell a kit. I think it was called Foul Out II or something like that. It was based on the same principle.

You can also get new replacement barrels for small ring Mausers at very reasonable prices. I mounted a 7mm A&B barrel from Midway on a Spanish Mauser several years ago & had fantastic results. That barrel came semi-finished for less than the cost of many barrel blanks. All I had to do was screw it on, mount sights & finish ream the chamber to correct headspace.

[mroliver77]

Back to the thread drift. A Krag with a modern(pointy) 150-170gr bullet is pretty respectable. If they only knew!

I have shot animals with military ball ammo pointy and blunt. At closer ranges where bullet speed is 2400+ all bullets left nasty wounds. Some flat based pulled innards out the exit hole behind them. I am always amazed when I see it stated that they poke pencil holes in tissue.

Anybody have resources to studies or personal experience with this?

Oh and on topic. Kroil really does seem to soak under fouling and HELP lift it. When I have stubborn milsurps I soak with solvent and scrub. Them some kroil or eds red to get at powder and whatever fouling. I will shoot them too if they are not completely fouled. Soak in E.R. or kroil while in safe. They eventually come clean.
I had a Legion turn in 17 Enfield that barrel looked like a sewer pipe. Some cleaning showed promise but not much. After a few cleaning, shooting, soaking sessions it looked new. Barrel is immaculate! I am not anal about a bit of fouling.
J

[Multigunner]

Back to the thread drift. A Krag with a modern(pointy) 150-170gr bullet is pretty respectable. If they only knew!

DWM tried to improve the 7X57 with a 154 gr spire point bullet at 2900+FPS.
Unfortunately many older 1893-95 Mausers came unhinged after a few too many rounds.
I've read of the small ring mauser failures in an article on the Gran Chaco war. They didn't identify the cartridge used but that DWM cartridge was suspect for use in older rifles from the beginning. Degraded propellent from jungle climes probably pushed pressure beyond safe limits.

PS

Anybody have resources to studies or personal experience with this?

I'll see if I can find you a few links to studies by military surgeons.

Range is a factor, at extreme close range a bullet would still have some yaw. If large bones were struck the wound could be devastating.

In Cuba a number of rebels took through and through wounds and suffered no lasting harm though they got no medical attention to speak of.

[Ken77539]

I got this weapon the other day and it was painted black. I'm getting the paint off with stripper, and the metal does have some pits on it under the paint but not enough to keep it from being shot. I've been trying to clean the inside of the barrel for five days but never run out of copper fouling with this barrel. Is this common ? Can I get a take off barrel (Ruger, Remington, ETC ) and replace it , or just keep on using Hoppe's copper cleaner ?
Thanks

Sweets 7.62. I've had a little Marlin 336 in 30-30 for about 30 years now. Only thing ever down the barrel were the 150 and 170gr. Remington Core-Loks followed by a good scrubbing after each use with #9 Hoppe's. Went after it with the Sweets one afternoon just for grins and it was like I had never cleaned the barrel before! Sold me. I keep a bottle of Sweets on the bench all the time now.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I had a neat little 1893 Mauser in 7x57. I didn't like the cock on closing but it didn't have that hidious thumb cutout that is found on later Mausers. One way to quickly idenify a '93 is to look at the front of the bolt. If the bottom of the bolt is flat it is a '93. I don't think Teddy charged up San Juan hill or anyone else for that matter. Teddy led a charge up another hill whose name I have forgotten. The calvary horses Teddy's men were supposed to ride didn't make it out of Florida for lack of room on available ships. Getting back to the question of the thread, that is the bore of the rifle. I have spent many hours scrubbing the bores of old military rifles. The latest, a 1902 Remington rolling block that was used in the Mexican revolution. All my scrubbing never seemed to help.

[Multigunner]

I had a few UMC 7X57 with cupronickel jacket round nose bullets.
I figure these were the cartridge intended for the Remington 1902 Rolling Block.

An article on rifles used by the Royal Navy in WW1 mentioned buying up 7mm single shot Remington rifles, these had to be the Rolling Block.
Some of these rifles had action failures, which was put down to "a defect in the breech".
I figure they had used an ELEY manufactured 7mm cartridge that was simply too hot for the Rolling Blocks.

If not for so many of the early 7mm rifles remaining in service around the world at the turn of the century upgrading the performance of the 7X57 would have been no problem. The hottest 7mm loads were more powerful than the WW1 era .30-06 ball, with a more efficient bullet due to smaller diameter for the same weight. Unfortunately these were only safe for use in 98 type actions and in MGs.

PS
If you find a 93 or 95 with a lot of set back its more than likely it has digested a few too many of those extra hot loads, or the homegrown Boer cartridges which were the cause of a number of action blow outs.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm sure many of you know my penchant for measuring the psi (Oehler M43) of milsurp ammunition. I have pressure measured a few different 7x57 milsurp cartridges also. Multigunner is very correct about the 154 gr milsurp stuff being quite "hot". Some PS50 ran 62,900 psi(M43) and some PS51 ran 64,500 psi(M43). Those both had 39 gr of the typical Nobel square cut flake powder under the 154 gr FMJBTs. Velocity was 2516 and 2543 out of the 22' test barrel.

A while back I found about 150 DWM 1916s with 172 gr FMJRNs. They had 36 gr of an extruded powder in the Berdan primed case. I pulled the bullets and the powder was good so I replaced the bullets in 20 to test and also loaded the same into WW cases with WLR primers which I test fired 1st. I got 5 out of the 20 original rounds to fire, the rest had dud primers. The psi and velocities were consistent with the powder/bullet loaded into the WW cases. The psi was 54,500 psi(M43) and the velocity was 2295 out of the 22" test barrel.

Venezuelan Cavim 84 with 45 gr extruded powder under a 139 gr FMJBT ran 45,700 psi for 2590 fps.

For reference Winchester 175 factory runs 49,900 psi(M43) at 2376 fps. Remington 175 factory runs 47,900 psi(M43) at 2225 fps. Hornady Light Magnum factory 139 BTSPs ran 44,200 psi(M43) at 2624 fps.

My own preferred hunting load is with the 175 gr RN over 49 gr H4831. It runs 2400 fps out of my 22" barreled M95 with 51,800 psi(M43) and consistent 1.25 moa or better accuracy. Working on and improved load with the RCBS 28-168-FN (old Loverin style) and hoping to maintain hunting accuracy at 2000 fps.

Larry Gibson

[1500FPS]

That doesn't surprise me one bit. More and more people in the gun world are finding out that the old CUP readings are much higher then they imagined them to be. I would have liked a velocity/pressure reading on that military ammo when it was fresh. I have to wonder how much, if any, it changed over the decades.

[JIMinPHX]

Thank you for the pressure info Larry. It was an eye opener for me.