22 LR ammo

[jcwit]

Yup! Just as predicted JC advocates picking up the Obamaphone.

Obama can defy gravity, y'know. . . . .

Think you need to amend your post.

[Springfield]

I never said I had a solution for every ones ammo shortage problem. I have a solution for mine, shoot something else. Doesn't mean I can't complain about guys who take advantage of others, in MY opinion. Nothing I can do about people selling ammo at very inflated prices except refusing to pay their prices and hope they get stuck with it, and remembering who they are. Took me 4 months to finish building my AR as I refused to pay inflated prices for that stuff also. I have other resources, everyone doesn't.

[Nickle]

A partial solution that MIGHT work is all these wanna be retailers to acquire a retail license and collect sales tax and pay their taxes on income AKA profits of said sales not only to the state but to the Fed.

This used to be Federally required (ammo sales required an FFL and a sales record), but is no longer. Some states require retail licenses, some don't. Some require sales tax certificates (and collecting), some don't. The current administration is trying to require internet sales pay sales tax. We don't want to go there. So, some sellers are selling legally, like the clowns on Gunbroker. I think doing this is already something the administration wants to do to shut us down.

I sure most here at least those here in the mid-west have heard of the Shipshewana Trading Place AKA Flea Market. Try to get into this market as a seller without a business license, ain't gonna happen.

Not a problem, BUT, some state don't require one, just have a sales tax certificate and collect sales tax, and report income (and pay that tax).

Also the retailer who continues to sell out all of his ammo supply week after week and month after month to the same goons over and over is no friend to the shooting fraternity. I'm referring to the big box stores not the independent retailer. I'm advocating laws tho to accomplish this.

That's a slippery slope that could end up as redistribution. Also government mandating prices and sales limits. They WANT to do this, but it flies right in the face of that pesky Constitution, again.

This whole idea could also be applied to gas if folks found a way to buy up all the supply. After all gas is not a requirement to life. You say, Oh yes it is, I have to get to work, solution, get a job closer to home, buy a bike, the Amish get along just fine without depending of transportation provided by gas.

Could be applied to food hoarding to, and, yup, you guessed it, IIRC, been tried to pass that one. That damned Constitution again. Not to mention that gas is used in a car, and last time I checked, operating a motor vehicle is a privelege, not a Constitutionally mentioned right. Notice I didn't say mandated. The rights from the Bill of Rights are not mandated by the Constitution, just enumerated there, so anybody didn't get the idea they don't exist. THe mandate goes much deeper than that, and if you don't know, you really do need to go research it. It's an enlightening read.

Are you implying I lean towards the Obama agenda?

Well, I'm not, not even in the least. Matter of fact, if I thought you were, I wouldn't waste my time replying. That's so you know where I'm coming from. Now, some of the morons that we bump into are what the Communists call "useful idiots". They're all for redistribution. And free phones, free rent, free money, no work, etc. A free market is against their "rights" you know (NOT). And, some of them ought to know better.

Do you in fact have the Federal licenses to manufacture ammo?

First off, that's probably the rudest hidden accusation I've heard here. Second, as a matter of fact, I do. Type 01 and Type 06. Any further insulting questions? And, no, I don't gouge, won't gouge, don't support gougers. I do consider it gouging, too. I just think whining about it won't fix it, but will feed the frenzy. Not much different than eBay "gotta win" auction fever. Seen stuff bid up over full retail, like 150% of retail. Personally, I think they're idiots. But, last time I checked, stupidity isn't a crime yet.

I never said I had a solution for every ones ammo shortage problem. I have a solution for mine, shoot something else. Doesn't mean I can't complain about guys who take advantage of others, in MY opinion. Nothing I can do about people selling ammo at very inflated prices except refusing to pay their prices and hope they get stuck with it, and remembering who they are. Took me 4 months to finish building my AR as I refused to pay inflated prices for that stuff also. I have other resources, everyone doesn't.

Yup, that's the same thing I do. I don't like the complaining for a few different reasons. Diverts people from the real problem out there, which isn't getting 22 ammo, but keeping owning one legal. Breeds some of the totally stupid myths out there. I seriously doubt the gov't bought up all the 22 rimfire ammo to create the shortage (heard that one several times).

There's tons of pretty dense morons out there. Many of the don't want a real fix for it, the want an immediate false fix from the gov't. These are the jerks that voted for the guy that was going to give them "free stuff". Well, "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

[jcwit]

First off, that's probably the rudest hidden accusation I've heard here. Second, as a matter of fact, I do. Type 01 and Type 06. Any further insulting questions? And, no, I don't gouge, won't gouge, don't support gougers. I do consider it gouging, too. I just think whining about it won't fix it, but will feed the frenzy. Not much different than eBay "gotta win" auction fever. Seen stuff bid up over full retail, like 150% of retail. Personally, I think they're idiots. But, last time I checked, stupidity isn't a crime yet.

Was exactly what it is, a question, not meant to be rude, not meant to be insulting. I asked, you answered. Simple.

Not to mention that gas is used in a car, and last time I checked, operating a motor vehicle is a privilege, not a Constitutionally mentioned right.

Yup owning a vehicle is a privilege and owning a firearm is a right. Wish to get picky, the bill of rights says nothing about ammo, only the fact to keep and bear arms.

[jcwit]

They're all for redistribution. And free phones, free rent, free money, no work, etc. A free market is against their "rights" you know (NOT). And, some of them ought to know better.

Not something I agree with or support.

[Nickle]

Good to see we agree on some of the stuff.

I'll take the FFL question as legit. I'm probably a little touchy about it, as that question has been asked before as a hidden accusation that I was crooked, and not legit. If we spoke, I'll wager it would be simple, as there isn't any inflection with print. That leads to misunderstandings.

Common sense dictate that ammo is included. After all, this isn't Germany. Yup, there they have registration. You can have a permit to own a rifle that doesn't allow you to own ammo. That's not myth, had a friend that had exactly that, seen it too.

I wouldn't use the vehicle argument when arguing with a liberal gun grabber, unless you use it against them. See, that's one of their standard arguments.

And, some of us would love having you help us fight off the gun grabbers. You've got the motivation and the moxie for it. There's a lot that don't. We're fighting them on the state level, as we already know they can't pass anything on the national level. We know that from their own statements a couple of years ago. The national stuff is probably to either divert attention from the scandals, or the state level legislation, or both!

[JIMinPHX]

I'd be supprised if the cost to manufacture .22 rounds exceeded $3-$5 a brick, even if manufacturing cost tripled it still doesn't justify an $80/brick price.

40 grains x 500 rounds / 7000 grains per pound = 2.86 pounds of lead in a brick of .22lr. That's about $3 right there in today's world. Now add in brass, powder, priming compound, labor, equipment maintenance, etc. I'll bet it costs at least $5 to make a brick & maybe a little more. Add to that shipping, packaging, retail costs & a little profit, we are probably talking close to the $10 that bricks used to sell for before all this shenanigans started.

That still does not justify the $95 price tag that I saw on bricks that were sitting on tables at a Houston gun show about a week ago.

[Nickle]

Do y'all know why some sellers can charge so much for 22 ammo?

Because somebody is dumb enough to pay it.

High prices for 22 ammo is an artificial problem that's been continued by frenzied buyers thinking "the sky is falling".

If you'd stocked up, you could use that, and replace it when prices return to normal.

If you're out, wait out places that sell at "normal" prices and buy that. Try your local shops that don't gouge. Remember who they are, and when the shortage is over, buy from these merchants, not the gouging thieves.

Or, shoot your centerfires instead. Hint, this is what I do, and I'm nowhere near out of 22 ammo.

But, please, don't pay the outrageous prices asked (and gotten from fools).

The real "normal" price is about what Walmart currently charges. Yes, it's gone up, but very little. Stop in and check the price on the shelf at your local Walmart. Surprise, it might be up to $22 per 550 pack, maybe.

[uscra112]

40 grains x 500 rounds / 7000 grains per pound = 2.86 pounds of lead in a brick of .22lr. That's about $3 right there in today's world. Now add in brass, powder, priming compound, labor, equipment maintenance, etc. I'll bet it costs at least $5 to make a brick & maybe a little more. Add to that shipping, packaging, retail costs & a little profit, we are probably talking close to the $10 that bricks used to sell for before all this shenanigans started.

That still does not justify the $95 price tag that I saw on bricks that were sitting on tables at a Houston gun show about a week ago.

There was an old economists' rule of thumb about average retail prices for manufactured goods like household appliances. The direct cost of manufacture times 5. Those indirect costs (sales and marketing, transportation, distributor markup, retail markup, etc.) are a lot more than you imagine. Retailers alone typically have to mark up 100% over their cost from the distributor. The two wild outliers we knew of were womens' clothing, and womens' cosmetics, which both ran more like 20:1 The other end of the bell curve is foodstuffs, which turn over quickly, and rarely get more than a 3:1 ratio, (except for brand name breakfast cereals!), and cars. (You'd be surprised to learn how little a dealer makes on a car!)

Now on to Economics 201.

Let's imagine what happens when in a period of high demand and limited supply of, say, .22 ammo. Let's say a store like Walmart or Cabelas "does the right thing" and offers the ammo at what you feel is "the right price" of $25, using that 5:1 ratio.

Oh, right, we don't have to imagine. We see it every day. Arbitragers (you call them scalpers) rush in and buy up everything in sight, because the Real Price is $80, and they know they can sell it for that on the street, or on Gunbroker or Craig's List. How do we know that $80 is the Real Price? Because that's what people who have the money will pay.

If the store price were $80, this wouldn't happen. And there would be product on the shelves for anyone who walked in to buy. And the manufacturer would have extra money to expand his production.

Anybody who can't grasp that gets a D- for the course.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Just what I want!: MORE licenses! There are already enough laws on the books that most of us are in violation of several every day.

Let's add a few more now. While we're going after the guys kiting a few bricks of .22, let's go after the guys who smelt a little lead, too. After all, those guys are working with known and controlled toxins and are probably not following EPA and OSHA and state regs, either.

dale in Louisiana
(And just in case somebody misses it, that's sarcasm)

[Nickle]

I'm with you, Dale.

And, much as I hate the gougers ("scalpers/arbitragers/etc"), there is a point as to why they charge the way they do.

Because they can, and some dipstick idiot is going to be dumb enough to pay it.

I'll wager some buyers don't even own a 22, but are hoarding to stock it for use "as the new currency if the economy collapses". Well, if that happens, they've got bigger problems.

Me and "currency"? Centerfire ammo will be worth much more than 22, any day, and especially certain calibers. And, I've got enough of them, and components to last. Bullets? I make my own, and not just cast boolits.

[jcwit]

I realize it hard to understand, but its not the guy selling a brick or two. Its the gougers standing in line hogging up all of the ammo the "RETAIL" store allows them to sell and weekly going to their local flea market acting like a retail dealer and week after week selling their products. This is a whole different situation than the guy selling 1 or 2 here and there.

As far as needing "MORE" licenses, not true, most states already require a license to operate a retail establishment, whether it be brick & mortar, or a table at the local flea market. To do otherwise is not only illegal, but cheating all the rest of the honest tax payers, which I'm beginning to wonder just how many here advocate cheating on their taxes.

[Nickle]

Here's my take on the license deal. Like it or not, not bash me, I'm not the state, I don't make the rules. I don't enforce them either. I do know the ones that pertain to me. Your state not only may vary, I'll wager it does some.

Now, there's no FFL required by the ATF to sell ammo. PERIOD! Try to apply for an FFL, and this gets addressed right on the form. They won't give you a Type 01 Dealer license (or any other type) just so you can sell ammo. There's zero need to address this further.

Now, let's move on to state licenses, and trust me, not all states call it a license, but, most do have the equivalent.

It's called a "Sales Tax Certificate" in my state, and if you are "in the business" of reselling for profit, you're required to collect sales tax AND have a sales tax certificate. Of course, enforcement can be spotty on this, especially sales at flea markets and sometimes gun shows (not always at gun shows).

Now, I'll tell you Internet sales are already exempt from sales tax if it's an "out of state" transaction, for the most part. Small sellers that aren't "in the business" usually get intentionally overlooked (and at flea markets too). Why? Costs more to make them collect tax than it's worth.

But, be a gouge artist, that's pretty much "in the business", and see exactly how much slack they cut you when you get caught. My thoughts are they are far more likely to dig deeper, and see exactly how much "back taxes" they can hit you for.

Here's what my state says (and many others are much the same):

License Required
Anyone who sells taxable items in VT must obtain a business tax account and license from the Vermont Department of Taxes and collect and remit on those sales. This requirement applies for all sales even if the sales are for one day or regularly throughout
the year. You will receive your license after processing of your application. There is no fee for the license.
NOTE: An out-of-state retailers coming into Vermont must obtain a Vermont license. The out-of-state license is not a substitute for the Vermont license.

[donald duck]

Yes, I agree that we customers have to be loyal to those who do not gouge us with their prices. Never do business with crooks that raise prices to extremes. Example on Gun Broker a party is asking $360.00 for 5,000 primers. That is gougeing. I wrote Gun Broker and will not do business with them if they continue to list such high priced items. I have a choice to buy or not to buy and to whom I give my business.Last time I purchased primers they were $35.00 per 1,000. Luckily I have a good supply.dd

[S.B.]

This used to be Federally required (ammo sales required an FFL and a sales record), but is no longer. Some states require retail licenses, some don't. Some require sales tax certificates (and collecting), some don't. The current administration is trying to require internet sales pay sales tax. We don't want to go there. So, some sellers are selling legally, like the clowns on Gunbroker. I think doing this is already something the administration wants to do to shut us down.



Not a problem, BUT, some state don't require one, just have a sales tax certificate and collect sales tax, and report income (and pay that tax).



That's a slippery slope that could end up as redistribution. Also government mandating prices and sales limits. They WANT to do this, but it flies right in the face of that pesky Constitution, again.



Could be applied to food hoarding to, and, yup, you guessed it, IIRC, been tried to pass that one. That damned Constitution again. Not to mention that gas is used in a car, and last time I checked, operating a motor vehicle is a privelege, not a Constitutionally mentioned right. Notice I didn't say mandated. The rights from the Bill of Rights are not mandated by the Constitution, just enumerated there, so anybody didn't get the idea they don't exist. THe mandate goes much deeper than that, and if you don't know, you really do need to go research it. It's an enlightening read.



Well, I'm not, not even in the least. Matter of fact, if I thought you were, I wouldn't waste my time replying. That's so you know where I'm coming from. Now, some of the morons that we bump into are what the Communists call "useful idiots". They're all for redistribution. And free phones, free rent, free money, no work, etc. A free market is against their "rights" you know (NOT). And, some of them ought to know better.



First off, that's probably the rudest hidden accusation I've heard here. Second, as a matter of fact, I do. Type 01 and Type 06. Any further insulting questions? And, no, I don't gouge, won't gouge, don't support gougers. I do consider it gouging, too. I just think whining about it won't fix it, but will feed the frenzy. Not much different than eBay "gotta win" auction fever. Seen stuff bid up over full retail, like 150% of retail. Personally, I think they're idiots. But, last time I checked, stupidity isn't a crime yet.



Yup, that's the same thing I do. I don't like the complaining for a few different reasons. Diverts people from the real problem out there, which isn't getting 22 ammo, but keeping owning one legal. Breeds some of the totally stupid myths out there. I seriously doubt the gov't bought up all the 22 rimfire ammo to create the shortage (heard that one several times).

There's tons of pretty dense morons out there. Many of the don't want a real fix for it, the want an immediate false fix from the gov't. These are the jerks that voted for the guy that was going to give them "free stuff". Well, "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

Ain't it great to live in a Free Enterprise country?
Steve

[Nickle]

Ain't it great to live in a Free Enterprise country?
Steve

Yes, it is (and that's no sarcasm). They do have the right to raise the prices to what they want. We also have the right to buy where, what and when we want. Don't like it, then don't buy. But, don't whine for the government to fix it, it's not their job.

Those of you that think the government should regulate the prices because you're either too lazy to find it at a price you like; or too dumb to plan ahead a little (and if you didn't plan, will accept the circumstances); ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Consider yourselves good little communists and go support an Obama rally somewhere. Turn in all your guns to the government and be good proletarians. While your at it, you can always move to Europe. They like government regulation, high prices and their "police state". Maybe you could switch places with a decent European on this site that thinks like an American.

Ashamed of yourselves yet? You ought to be! Some of you so called "gun owners" here really do disgust me. I fight against heinous gun laws, just to have some of you working harder against me than the anti-gunners.

And, mods, sorry about the political rant, but this thread is really in the wrong part of the forum anyways.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Nickle-

But it's not a GUN law, it's a law that will ultimately get in the way of selling ammunition. Some people have difficulty with 'unintended consequences' and also have difficulty in understanding that ANY law affecting guns and ammo will fall into the hands of The Law Enforcement Community for its application, and we know that thoe people always have our freedom in mind, so a few new laws won't hurt, right?

After all, if it saves just ONE child...

dale in Louisiana

[S.B.]

Pretty hard on general populace aren't you Nickle? I suppose you're in retail.
Steve

[shooterg]

FWIW- 100 packs of Winchester .22 at Walmart for $7.47 2 days ago. Didn't buy any, don't need any. 3 days before had the 333 packs for $14.98 . Winchester was the only brand they had, maybe they're catching up faster than others.

[Nickle]

Pretty hard on general populace aren't you Nickle? I suppose you're in retail.
Steve

I am hard on them. I am not in retail, for the most part. I'm a manufacturer, and a good enough portion of my business is wholesale anyways.

Now, the only way that has anything to do with my feelings is that I frequently have to hear the crying.

And my main products? Buy them or don't. Try checking the corner store for 43 Spanish ammo, 11mm Mauser ammo, 40-82 Winchester ammo, 405 Winchester ammo, etc.

They can't find it, can they? Me, I have to put up with little ******** on prices. The common stuff, if they say Wal-Mart is cheaper, I return "well, then that's the place to buy it", and they don't get their ammo from me. Truth be known, it's the cheap skin-flints that cry, and they generally don't buy from me anyways. Check the common prices on some of those calibers I mentioned.

Know that I don't gouge, won't gouge, don't support gougers and generally remember who they are. I don't buy from them, and if they go to buy from me, the prices go up accordingly. The excess in those cases, IF they're still dumb enough to buy, gets donated to a good cause, and it isn't my pocket.