Need help. Leading issue since 2004.

[44man]

To the best I can read no one said to make a chore out of loading 44man.
I rarely am concerned as to how long I wait before I shoot WQ bullets. At one time I did wait as I didn't know any different but I learned better just like you didn't start out knowing everything in reloading. You learned it over a period of time. Just like me and others.
But I think you will agree some like to make a chore out of everything they do so they can have something to talk about to their peers.
A guy at the range comes to mind. He really likes to chatter at the range. Telling all the steps he does to get accuracy from his custom rifles.
I am like a simpleton. No fuss no muss.

Yes, I agree. It is just not that hard and simple seems to work just fine. Each gun needs different with the revolver only needing a little different. If I or any good shooter went into detail, it MIGHT take half a page. The hardest thing I can do is to make guys stop all the nit picking stuff and relax.
If you look at my load book for a revolver you would laugh. It is 2 lines---YEP, 2 lines because the book is small and I print big.
I do NOT have a book for each mold either, ALL cast the same.
The truth is, to make a revolver shoot would take one post but then how would we all be in touch? I like my friends to talk to and discuss all things. However, I am the laziest, slowest reloader ever. The work was to eliminate junk, make it easier and toss out the stuff that never did any good. Then your load book will be 2 lines and if you print smaller, 1 line.

[RobS]

Damn, it's gonna kill me to wait 14 days for those boolits to ripen.
Larry, what you said makes perfect sense, BUT, The reason that my .410 sizer die sizes to .411+, is that I lapped it out a few years ago because of the leading problem. So now it looks like I will be going back to square one.
If I have no luck with the water quenched boolits, I will get a size die at .410, and try quenched boolits.
Thank you all again for all your help.
Jack

You can also put them in the oven at 190-200 degrees for 2 hours (leave them in the oven to cool) to speed up the aging. I do this all the time and even anneal some of my boolits down to whatever BHN hardness I want just by adjusting the temperatures in my little toaster convection oven. Make sure you have a good thermometer as some oven temperature dials may not be what it really is inside the oven. Heat treating at 190-200 degrees will only speed the aging and will not anneal (soften) the intended boolit BHN. After the boolits cool I have sized and loaded in the same day. I've not shot them the same day I guess its because I typically don't have the time to do the casting, speed aging, reloading, and shooting all in one day. I also do this with air cooled WW boolits.

[littlejack]

OK fellas, I went to the range today and here are the results. First, I did get leading, but not as much. But, it was to much compared to how it should have looked. Second, I Chrony'd the first 10 shots, and here are the numbers.
All cases were R-P, and partial sized only.

1. 1140
2. 1153
3. 1151
4. 1142
5. 1112
6. 1107
7. 1146
8. 1136
9. 1118
10. 1109
Avg. fps was 1132, ES was 45.94, and the SD was 18.02. Not very good numbers for the last two.
Now, if you will look at shot #6, and shot #10, you will notice that these were the last shots fired in each string. # 6 being the last shot of the first 6 rounds, and #10, being the last of the second string of 4 shots to total ten shots. They are also the slowest of the shots of both strings. What do you make of that.
I did notice later, that the bullet pull from recoil was there, but not as bad as my previous shooting session a couple weeks ago. I DID tighten the crimp some on these latest loads. Maybe the slow velocity was from the bullet being pulled out, and there being MORE case capacity, equaling less pressure?
So, now I have to either try sizing the boolit down to .410, to prevent the boolits from being swaged down by the throats, or change out my boolit lube.
I believe I will try sizing the boolits to .410, as I think I may have a Lee push through .410 sizer.
Any comments or opinions welcome.
OH yea, I believe that the leading was sproutiong at the forcing cone, and getting worse as the boolits traveled down the bore.
Regards
Jack

[Mk42gunner]

Okay, somehow I missed the fact that you are shooting 300 grain boolits. (I really need to slow down and make sure I comprehend what I am reading).

While I am no expert when it comes to loading heavy boolits in magnum revolvers; I do have a few questions that may help shed some light on the subject.

What brand of reloading dies are you using? What is the I.D. of a case after sizing? How much are you expanding the neck? I tend to think case neck tension has more to do with preventing bullet pull than the crimp; but I have been wrong before.

Robert

[44man]

Okay, somehow I missed the fact that you are shooting 300 grain boolits. (I really need to slow down and make sure I comprehend what I am reading).

While I am no expert when it comes to loading heavy boolits in magnum revolvers; I do have a few questions that may help shed some light on the subject.

What brand of reloading dies are you using? What is the I.D. of a case after sizing? How much are you expanding the neck? I tend to think case neck tension has more to do with preventing bullet pull than the crimp; but I have been wrong before.

Robert

This is true. Crimp is just an aid, not a solution.
Crimping too hard can also bulge the brass away from the boolit.

[littlejack]

Well fellas, I went to the range with another batch of loaded rounds yesterday (Saturday). These were water quenched as before, but sized in my Lee .410 push-through sizer. I mic'd them after sizing and they read from .4097 to .4103. I don't know why the discrepancies in the measurements but that's what it is. The boolits started leading from the first cylinder full. I had 39 rounds loaded, and shot all of them. The bore was leaded, but not as bad as with the first batch of water quenched boolits, and a LOT less than the air cooled boolits.
Now that I have tried the water quenched boolits at .411 diameter AND the water quenched boolits at
.410 +/-, I will try a different lube.
One of the early replies, stated that I should get rid of the 50/50 lube (50% beeswax/50% Alox) I was using. The poster stated that he used LBT lube with good success. I don't want to buy a bunch of different lubes to find out which one (if any) works better than the 50/50 lube.
I will gladly pay for a small sample of different lubes from you fellas, and pay the freight on said lube. I can finger lube the boolits well enough to see how it works with my cast boolits. I would appreciate all offers.
Regards to all.
Jack
PS: Happy Fathers Day

[Forrest r]

I'd load around 12 to 18 of those bullets but load them backwards (base out/nose in case). Do tests on the seating depth until you get to where you have to push (minor force with thumb) the rounds down into the chambers to get the bullets to seat all the way in the chambers.

Doing this will take any side to side play out of the bullet as it goes down & out the cylinder & into the forcing cone.

What you're describing is a classic case of bullet skid.

If you think it's your bullet lube put a heavy coat of johnson's paste wax on them after you do your traditional sizing/lube & let it dry before you load them.

[schreibwy]

I solved this problem in my model 29 by rolling around my lubed bullets in Lee liquid Alox. The problem I believe is that your bullets maybe too hard and keeping their lube in the bullet grooves.

[454PB]

How quickly were these boolits sized after casting?

If you wait too long to size them, the sizing process re-softens them.

[littlejack]

Forrest, I took one of the boolits sized in my .410 Lee push through die, and slid it through each of the chambers. The boolit would slide all the way through with very slight pressure from me and I could feel each of the driving bands rub as they went out the front end. So, I do not believe there is not any side to side play. Before I sized them smaller in the LPT die, they were even a smidgon tighter/centered in the throats.

454:
I sized the boolits within an hour of casting/quenching them.

I will try using JPW, and some LLA on them after sizing/lubing. Then shoot them in a couple days.
The leading is starting at the forcing cone, and smearing/carried down the bore. The bore is just like a
mirror inside.
As stated earlier, I sent the handgun back to S&W in about 1999 and they cut a new
forcing cone and set the barrel back. It did lead before I sent it back though.

CORRECTION: I bought this revolver in 1974, and it has leaded ever since. I don't know how I came up
with 2004 on my original post heading???????
I appreciate all of the tips fellas.
Jack

[DrBill33]

Had a similar situation with my .44RemMag, SuperBlackHawk. Went to a gas checked mould and cast at BHN of 16. Problem solved for me.

[Forrest r]

Why I'm suggesting you turn some of the bullets around is that the chambers are tapered & putting the widest part of the bullet in the smallest part of the chamber takes a lot of things out of the picture.

Pushing a bullet thru by hand & letting 35,000psi push the same bullet/chamber combo is 2 different things.

It sounds to me like your bullet is skidding at an angle into the forcing cone. That will deform the bullet, shave/deposit lead & leave lead buildup/streaking down the bbl. The more shots, the more leading/streaking.

If it was me I'd turn the bullets backward & load the far enough out that there was only 5/1000th's of clearance until the end of the cylinders. Hopefully it would take some force to push the ammo into the cylinders all the way to be able to have the pistol function. Then I'd shoot 1 round off & open the cylinder & look at the forcing cone with a magnifying glass or a jewelers loop to look for any leading/bullet hitting on 1 side/lead shaving/etc. Then close it up & shot another, check then another & check until I shot a cylinder full.

Starting the bullets out at the end of the cylinders will eliminate any slop/play in them & tell you if the cylinders are lining up with the bbl.

The only other thing that I could think of the check is the bbl right at where it screws into the frame. It might be tighter there (thread lock) & that will do the same thing you are describing.

Good luck

[Messy bear]

Did you say what primers you are using?

[littlejack]

I am using Winchester LP.

[MGySgt]

How soon does the leading start??

6 rounds?
12 rounds?

It really sounds as if your lube is a great part of your issue.

[got_lead?]

This is just my opinion, but driving a 300 grain boolit at 1150 fps from a 41 tells me that your loads are generating a tad more than 14,000 CUP. I'm guessing your
loads are probably approaching the 30,000 CUP neighborhood. When I load this to this level, a coww would smear all the way down the bore. Increasing the bhn up a bit might better match the ultimate compression e strength of your boolit to the pressures you must be running. You might try adding a bit of Lino to cast up some boolits around 18 to 20 something bhn and see how they do. You could also try lighter loads in the 800 fps neighborhood for your coww boolits.

Good luck

Davic

[got_lead?]

I hate typing with an IPhone.

David

[Messy bear]

I am using Winchester LP.

I agree with lead. Could be over 30000 lb.

[littlejack]

The leading starts on the first cylinder full, if not on the first shot.
I do have some linotype, I may mix up a batch of ww's W/lino and see what happens.
My go to load over the years, is the Lyman 410459 boolit from acww's. My load for decades was 8 grains of Unique, for approximately 1000 fps. I have switched to 9 grains of Herco, for about the same velocity. These have always leaded also.
Jack

[armexman]

HA ha ha, I traded away my M57 for a CZ-550 in 9.3X62. Most heartfelt and regretable(?) decision I've ever made; still makes me cry. But I love my 9.3X62!!!
On to the OP's concerns. I still have a beautiful and shootable NMBK in 41Mag. I shoot LBT's 220WFN and 250WFN all day long with out leading and no gas-checks on the 250, without an ounce of leading. Why?
I fire-lapped the revolver in the beginning for consistency based on the advice of a person whom shoots 425 PB in a 475 Linebaugh at ~1400FPS!
My throats all measure .411, my bore .409 from stern to tip and the boolits fall out of all lapped molds at .412 (Basically one consistent "squirt"). I do not use gas-checks or hardened boolits, the alloy is all batched at 15BHN. Like Mr. 44 Man KISS. Last time I cleaned the bore was when Mr. Christ (My Saviour) was "knee high to a grasshopper".
My point. LJ keep it simple and read Mr. Smith's book God put him here on earth for a very good reason!! (Careful, don't judge the man). Muchas Gracias.