standard or magnum primers i 45-70?

[Matt85]

im looking to buy some primers but im unsure what primers would be ideal to buy. normally id buy a small amount of a few different kinds but todays primer market isn't going to allow that. which do you think will work the best, magnum or standard primers in a 45-70 BP cartridge? these cartridges are heavily compressed with a full load of 70 grains under a 510 grain bullet.

thanks
-matt

[bigted]

I always use large rifle primers. my fav are CCI 200 but I found some Remington 9 1/2 so bought several box's of them. have not found the need for the magnum primers to date.

[CanoeRoller]

Years ago (my toothlessness is showing) most everyone used magnum primers, as that what had been mentioned by Steve Garbe and Mike Venturino in the SPG lube primer as making BP work. Within a short period of time, people were experimenting with other primers, even pistol primers. What was learned was, to each his own. If you are hunting, you have different needs than if you are shooting targets, and you will have different needs still if you are trying to win silhouette matches. This means you have to experiment, and that when you change your loads (compression, powder type, and slugs) you may have to change primers also.

I used to prefer federal 215's for my loads with Goex cartridge, as my groups were small, and at times, I would win local matches with the load. My Cartridge powder is long gone, and now I am experimenting again. If you are trying to shoot tight groups, you will need to experiment a bit.

In the present climate, that is difficult. Until folks calm down and come to realize the sky is not falling, there will continue to be a shortage of components. What I would recommend is get to build a load around what you have, if you have CCI 200's (or whatever) and a boolit you like, build a load around them, use different powder loads and compressions, different seating depths, until you find the sweet spot of your rifle. Load up 5 rounds with your load the way it is, then subtract 2 grains, load 5 more, subtract 2 grains and load 5 more. Have a fouler for each group, and see what your group will be. One group will be tighter than the rest.

Then start tweaking things around that one group, loading batches of 5 rounds around each adjustment, change just one variable at a time, and soon you will have a load that works.

Try not to stick with the seems historically accurate, that may leave you very frustrated. Unless you have access to the same powder, brass and primers used 120 years ago, you will not be able to duplicate the original loads. You can get very close to those loads with modern components, but only if you allow yourself the room to do so, and make adjustments to your load.

It is up to you, but the best way to reproduce the original loads is to pursue accuracy to a level that replicates what they did in the old days.

[Don McDowell]

With Goex, KIK, and Schuetzen powders standard primers work the best in the rifles that hang around here. Magnum primers tend to make the fouling a bit drier and harder, and also seem to make the ES over the chronograph a bit wider.
Also don't overlook large pistol primers. Some of the best superduty accurate loads I have use a cci350 primer.

For those that might be interested in still shooting Cartridge ( good powder great accuracy but compared to stuff we have available now , absolutely filthy) Coonies in Hobbs NM still has a supply of it on hand, as does I believe a dealer in Virginia.

[Matt85]

looks like i may have found 2 boxes (2000 primers, its all or nothing) of CCI #250 (magnum large rifle) primers so thats what im gonna use. i will try other primers if i get a chance but its near impossible to find primers at a fair price right now. i must have made 20 bids on gun broker last night and lost every one of them to people willing to pay more then what they normally sell for.

both the SPG lube book and the book by J.S. and Pat Wolf highly recomend magnum primers but i really wanted to hear some more reviews from people.

-matt

[kokomokid]

I will usually try magnum primers when developing loads and I use them on a few. My best loads with swiss 1 1/2 are cci pistol with a spacer under. These loads will shoot under 1 moa at 220yds (chicken line) off bench rest but magnum primers double the group size and raise poi almost 2". I think magnums were the primer to use with military powder, just my two cents worth. LB

[Matt85]

your using pistol primers in a 45-70 BP cartridge? special brass? both types of brass i have take large rifle primers.

-matt

[NickSS]

I have used all sorts of primers in 45-70s over the years including most brands and regular and magnum rifle primers as well as regular and magnum pistol primers. I have found that regardless of primer used I can make loads that will shoot more accurately than I can hold with some experimentation. Today I mostly use standard large rifle primers and buy them in bulk all of the same lot number. I do the same with powder. I then develope a load that my rifle likes and stick with it until I run out of powder and primers. Then I start the process over again.

['74 sharps]

The regular large rifle primers work fine with my load of 70g 2F in my 45-70's.

[kokomokid]

Matt- I punch pistol primers through .008" art paper which leaves about the same height as rifle primer, a common practice with swiss powder hereabouts. I develop loads at 360 yards and seldom shoot the 220 yds. Primer selection and neck tension are my last test in load development. Just my 2 cents. LB

[Don McDowell]

your using pistol primers in a 45-70 BP cartridge? special brass? both types of brass i have take large rifle primers.

-matt

No just regular brass, just seat the primer and go. There's not a lot of difference in height between the pistol primer and the large rifle. The pistol primer seems to give a more even ignition of the blackpowder.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Headspacing the L Pistol primers with some paper, (I use ashless filter paper) will go a long ways toward your breach block's life.

KW
The Lunger

PS use Large Pistol Primers in my Swiss loads in the 38-50 and the 40-70 SS, In the 45-110 use WLR's.

[Matt85]

I did some primer based testing today and came to two conclusions:

1. standard primers produce softer fouling.
2. at least with 70 grs of KIK 2F, federal magnum primers produce the best groups (by a long shot!).
3. standard large rifle primers produced the worst groups compared to magnum primers.

these are just my results and yours may differ. but it really should be noted that federal magnum primers beat all other primers including other magnum primers hand over fist. the best group with other magnum primers (Winchester) was around 4" and the best group with non-magnum primers (Remington and federal) was around 6". the average (they were very consistent) group with the federal magnum primers was 2" with a few fliers here and there. using over powder wads seemed to reduce the fliers some.

-matt

[kokomokid]

Went to three different gun shops yesterday and all three had a good amount of primers (ww, Russian, cci). Not the primer I was looking for but at least we have primers and powder on the shelves. LB

[ColColt]

Having read these posts it seems primer choice is a matter of experimentation with a given rifle. I had read posts before that left me with the impression magnum primers were the way to go and the two books I have by Venturino/Garbe pretty much indicated the same. So, I hunted and found some Federal 215M primers at an elevated price and bought 5K. Guess I'll have to work with what I have since I missed the CCI 200 primers I had originally wanted. They were all sold out before I could even respond to the email I was sent notifying me.

[Matt85]

from my testing i found that CCI were probably the worst primers for BP. but i onley tested standard and magnum large rifle. nothing even came close to the groups done with the federal magnum large rifle. these are also the primers recomended my Spence Wolf in his book on loading for the trapdoor rifle. the book also recomended winchester but while winchester magnum primers were better then some others, they didnt even come close to federal magnum.

-matt

[montana_charlie]

I have a bullet mould which throws a 560 grain Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet. It was the first design I shot when I got my Sharps rifle. Because of this thread, I just looked at the notes I kept for that bullet.

In those days I used the CCI 250 magnum large rifle primer because I had a lot of them. I did not hurry to go buy something else, even though I frequently read that the CCI BR2 is a favorite.
Before I switched to experimenting with paper patched bullets, I got my PJ Creedmoor groups (five shots at a hundred) down to 1.2" wide x .75" high, and got Chrony results with ES numbers below 15 and SD's as low as 5, 7, & 8.

So, my belief is that you develop the load to perform with the components you have on hand. If you can't get the gun to shoot ... then change something.
Perhaps, someday, I will cast some of those PJ Creedmoors and try the old loads with CCI BR2 primers ... to see what difference it makes.

CM

[detox]

I remember when Winchester Large Pistol primers were the flavor of the month...that was back in 1996. I think Federal Match Large Rifle primer are popular now.