WARNING- High Soap Lubes= Hydroscopic Lube

[Eutectic]

It's not strictly true that there's no such word as hydroscopic - it means "of, or pertaining to, a hydroscope".

Where a hydroscope is "any instrument for making observations of underwater objects".

Perhaps a short parable will help Driver man.

One of our ladies is on a forum for cooking and recipes as we are on this one for boolit lube.

She starts out: "I've found the most divine recipe for carat salad!"

Yes, carat is a word for precious stone weight or even a purity rating for gold.
But in the world of vegetables the word 'carat' does not exist!Here the word is 'carrot'.....

This thread which seems hard to understand by some.... starts with a warning about high soap boolit lubes absorbing/retaining moisture.

While 'hydroscopic' may indeed be the definition of an underwater observation visual tool or the use of such...... THIS WORD DOES NOT EXIST TO DESCRIBE OR DEFINE THE MOISTURE ABSORBING/RETAINING ABILITY OF A HIGH SOAP LUBE!

Hygroscopic is the word that does.

Eutectic

[Grump]

Gee, too many of us here must have forgotten one of the fundamental benefits of living with a FAMILY--automatic and often un-commented on "translation" of what we really said into what we meant to say.

The grammar/spelling Nazis have had their say. Leave it alone now. There are mis-spelt wurdz all over the place here. Maybe I missed the sarcasm or humor? So I'll let it go now too.

One letter. Sheesh!

But anhydrous--now that was an unforgivable error. Nevermind, that really was a bad joke for print, ya gotta be there for the inflection.

I consider this thread to be largely a waste of my time for what is turning out to be a single data-point with the OP's personal experience, contrasted with multiple other reports of no rust problems, not quantified to a specific number of other users and also not quantified with the key corresponding data of humidity levels and temperatures (I demand temps data because of its huge effect on chemical activity).

Now the OP did give some temp ranges and we can most likely surmise correctly that humidity was 85% or higher, maybe all 90% plus, *relative* humidity.

Now I'm currently testing SL-61.1, SL-62.1, a version of Ben's Red, and 5w-30 Castrol full synthetic on a hunk of mild or maybe hard steel from my son's welding class shop. It is almost 48 hours into exposure in the bathroom to a fairly steady 80° F atmosphere, about 20% humidity all the time, and a daily "pulse" to about 40% when I shower. Nothing yet, the steel didn't get noticeably condensation even when the mirror was fogged.

I figure that anything badly hygroscopic will attract enough from the air to rust differently as compared to the untreated steel. Now that I think about it, I should probably drag a Q-Tip of salt water across the middle of the thing for an additional test. But this test may likely be neither hot enough nor humid enough to produce any rust IF the high-soap formulas are a rust risk.

Still, that might be a useful data point.

IF the 61.1 and/or 62.1 lubes prove to be rust-o-genic above 90°F AND 90%RH, then that would of course be sub-optimal but perhaps a price the few who experience those conditions could live with like they used to live with the cleaning routine pre-1950 in the days of chlorate primers. It would make no difference to me if the accuracy is unchanged from 10° F to 110°F with no change in POI between those temps (other than the load's velocity effects if any) AND no flyers of any sort, mainly because humid days at high temps are so rare where I live and I CAN remember to swab a bore when the air gets wet.

[44man]

Stearate has one function. It keeps lube components from separating when it cools. Only need enough.
Water is no danger, lanolin will absorb it. 50-50 mix of water and anti freeze is a great cleaner and will protect metals. Cutting oils mixed with water will not rust the machines.
BPCR rifles and muzzle loaders NEED water absorbed in lubes. The rust danger is the powder fouling.
Why use a high soap lube? It does nothing at all and once beyond the initial use to make a good lube, it is senseless. You get too much and it is caustic and will rust metal. It draws oils out and destroys the oils. Makes more soap. The WD-40 of the lube recipes.
I will go with Gear on this.
Will dish soap rust metal? Or is it because it removes protective oils from the metal? I don't know, I don't dip my guns in dish soap. I have cleaned guns with it but a good rinse is good.
Soaps are proven in greases and they do not absorb water or rust your car. Have you ever seen a rusty ball joint?

[Grump]

My exposure experiment is re-started as of this morning. Turns out that sanding that block of steel did NOT go through to bright bare metal, it went to bright finish.

Mystery-Mutt metal, but it is as hard as many barrel steels.

[swheeler]

Stearate has one function. It keeps lube components from separating when it cools. Only need enough.
Water is no danger, lanolin will absorb it. 50-50 mix of water and anti freeze is a great cleaner and will protect metals. Cutting oils mixed with water will not rust the machines.
BPCR rifles and muzzle loaders NEED water absorbed in lubes. The rust danger is the powder fouling.
Why use a high soap lube? It does nothing at all and once beyond the initial use to make a good lube, it is senseless. You get too much and it is caustic and will rust metal. It draws oils out and destroys the oils. Makes more soap. The WD-40 of the lube recipes.
I will go with Gear on this.
Will dish soap rust metal? Or is it because it removes protective oils from the metal? I don't know, I don't dip my guns in dish soap. I have cleaned guns with it but a good rinse is good.
Soaps are proven in greases and they do not absorb water or rust your car. Have you ever seen a rusty ball joint?

Sounds logical and kind of what I thought.

[dverna]

What I find curious is that so many people are working to create an "Extreme Lube" and sharing their ideas and thinking of how to get there; yet none seem to be interested in the commercial possibilities of success. Yes, I am talking about ----- PROFIT!!!! If I was close to finding the magic formula I would not share it. But that is me. I would look at commercializing it.

Those of you who are insulting each others ideas.

Those who cannot take cheap shots can let the trolls win. Hell, I question a lot of the work people do. Such as, "What is the point of Powder Coating when it is such a problem?" Call it trolling or fact finding or making others think about providing a logical rationale for doing something other than "This is neat and I did it myself!!!" (Note: they are not "cheap shots" if you do not have a logical rationale/explanation of "why".) This is actually a pretty tame forum. If your skin is too thin for Cast Boolits, I doubt you will find another place to share information.

As other have stated, closing a thread that gets a bit argumentative can be a bad thing. We come here to learn and part of that process is questioning and challenging others. If posts get personal, the moderators can issue warnings and ban offenders. But reasonable men can agree to disagree and still respect each other.

Don Verna

[357maximum]

Don Verna


Some of us do it for the shear fun of doing it. Even camps that disagree on recipe/needs part of lubes share this affliction. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BECOME A MILLIONAIRE SELLING CAST BOOLIT LUBE anyway. Personally I see the lube vendors here a valliant heroes offering a service for those that choose not to make their own lubes.....they are not getting rich selling lube....I have made enough lube to tell ya that with full conviction. I also do not believe either side of this debate was taking cheap shots....both sides feel strongly about their viewpoint that is all. I believe atmospheric conditions where one lives is responsible for most the angst between the "sides". A feller in the desert is not going to get 95 degrees with 90% humidity and I do not understand 100 degrees and dry as a bone......I think we can blame most of this "imagined mess" on the weatherman and politicians...maybe we should do just that.

[badgeredd]

My exposure experiment is re-started as of this morning. Turns out that sanding that block of steel did NOT go through to bright bare metal, it went to bright finish.

Mystery-Mutt metal, but it is as hard as many barrel steels.

Grump,

Do you have any idea if the steel you are using has a high chromium or high nickel content?

Edd

[357maximum]

Grump,

Do you have any idea if the steel you are using has a high chromium or high nickel content?

Edd

Edd

I understand what/why you ask this, but it is proably an invalid test regardless of steel composition anyway...the Utah desert is not a sub-tropical Michigan summer. Like I said above the weather guesser person is likely more to blame than anyone on this topic and it's different results obtained herein.

[Grump]

Okay, 5 days in and I can report that the periodic at least once daily and a few times twice daily humidity up to about 40% has resulted in no rust on the bare metal.

Yes, it was degreased with brake cleaner. Twice.

On day three, the Q-Tip swabbed dots of dill pickle juice started showing 1-1.5mm dark rusty spots in the middle. Smearing the pickle juice across the center of the steel, over the various lube smears, left too thin a deposit of salts/whatever to generate any rust under these conditions. Still 78-81°F most of the time.

So far, I believe I can confidently report that all soapy lubes are less hygroscopic than dried out brine on this steel.

NEXT, I'm going to toss it in the top rack of the dishwasher during the dry cycle. Heat of somewhere above 110°F and humidity has to be 100% because water condenses on everything that's cooler than the interior air.

[357maximum]

Just toss it into a sealed zipper lock bag that has had some water misted into it and then leave it in the direct sunshine....pretty closely resembles the atmoshpere here right now.

For what it is worth I drug a chunk of ivory, a chunk of Gears original tranny goo lube, Joe's original green soapy stuff and a few other waxy but non high soap lubes across a lightly polished mild steel plate yesterday...nothing to report as nothing has happened other than the really soapy things feel ever so slightly moist when touched and have a thin whitish haze look to them.

Even if no rust shows up I am still not leaving high soap lube residue inside my babie$. What the rest of you do is up to you....it is your money sitting there.....not mine. I am just not willing to risk it when it is unnessesary to have THAT MUCH SOAP in a lube for where I live...call me a wuss iffin ya need to.......It matters not to this feller.

[Grump]

The central Q-tip drag of pickle juice was showing some trace rust away from the three lubes and the 5Wx-30 oil. No rust on any of the bare metal, and definitely none under the smears of lube--even where pickle juice was put on top of them.

So I did the Ziploc bag with a heavy soaked paper towel in there for a bit more than 24 hours at the 75-81 indoor temps.

Not sure how these pics will show. Humidity in the closed bag ran from 63-80% RH. Even then the bare metal was showing hardly any pinprick rust, and the soapy lubes were not getting wet-soap white. The series of close-ups shows where I drew "61.1", "62.1" and "BR" (for Ben's Red) on the steel.

So then I took them outside. Just before sunset but in the shade was the 99°F reading, after maybe a half-hour.

After almost exactly 12 hours in the sun, I finally got a lot of pinprick rust everywhere except on the lube smears and the oil patch.



So I left it in the sun for another 18 hours and the lubes all just sorta melted away but I still saw no rust under them. I estimate the heat inside the bag was above 140°F. It was definitely too hot to pick up the metal. The LCD display was completely blacked out.



I might have tried to upload too many pics. Will try another post.

[Grump]

Here's the rest. The last pic is after just wiping everything off with a paper towel, so a lot of the red left while the most-rusted areas remained dark and pitted.

[Grump]

So, absent sacrificing a spare SIG 9mm barrel for a few 72-hour shootabullet then expose the steel to mid-temp humidity in situ tests, any suggestions on how to further investigate this???

Oh, that reading of 128 is after cooling off inside the 80-degree house for 10 minutes. That's the residual temp of the instrument itself.

[357maximum]

[QUOTE=Grump;2299735]So, absent sacrificing a spare SIG 9mm barrel for a few 72-hour shootabullet then expose the steel to mid-temp humidity in situ tests, any suggestions on how to further investigate this???
QUOTE]


Even a spare Sig barrel deserves better than to be used as a guinea pig I think, maybe some cutoff sections of barrel from a gunsmith? Other than that I am clueless. The only lube I have seen leave any mark on the steel plate here was the 1st rendition of the TRANNY GOO lube, that has left a very very very slight cheap cold blue - bluing like trace, all the other "super soaped" lubes just feel slick and slightly moist and have that slight milky look to them. I would say you went above and beyond and have proably proved my apprehensions wrong....now you can put the high soap lubes in your Weatherby and sleep easy. Good on you.

[runfiverun]

Weatherby why such a cheap gun?
they are doing fine in my AR-30.
click the link here on the sight if you want a plain jane price.

Mike, I think we have isolated something else from the soap but it isn't rust.

[357maximum]

Mike, I think we have isolated something else from the soap but it isn't rust.

...if that is a jab...consider it taken and carry on....tushe'

The soap in high concentrations is still showing signs of moisture absorbtion so it is hyGroscopic when not encapsulated with enough wax/oil molecules. My opinion is a little soap=good, lotsa soap=bad...IN HUMID AREAS ANYWAY.......I full well warn you my opinion will not change after seeing it suck water from the atmosphere like it does. I hope yall enjoy yourself, have fun....Mike

[runfiverun]

nope not a jab, just a heads up.
the soap lube has a layer in the bore that initially would appear to be rust.
but if you look closer it is a suspension and there is another layer below that
and one on top of it that is black from the powder residue being laid on the surface.
it takes time for the layers to be formed, and are partially formed by the ester oils.
yep we been digging deep into this.

[btroj]

And deeper and deeper.

[357maximum]

Iffin ya dig deep enough to find the mad hatter, tell him I said hi.


GOOD LUCK