WARNING- High Soap Lubes= Hydroscopic Lube

[357maximum]

I ......just as many here have been playing with adnormally high amounts of Ivory Soap in lube recipes. I have not gotten the accuracy with them, but the main issue is as follows:

Last Wed/Thur Mid Michigan was "treated" to 85-90 degree temps with ultra high humidity.
I had all my high soap lubes out in the open on my casting bench getting ready to make a homogenized batch of soapy mutt lube out of all the old test candidates/failures and such. Every single lube that was made with 9% or more Ivory soap in the lube recipe had a patchy/whitish coating of what could be best described as slime that extended about 1/8 inch into the lube blocks. It was kinda like petting a wet toad when I touched the lube blocks. Ivory soap is not as corrosive as say Dawn dishsoap, but it is still a base that is slightly caustic according to some. I can only imagine what the soapy lube residue from high soap lubes would do to a rifle bore in such hot/moist conditions.....It could be ugly if kept unchecked and who here among us wants to treat their cast boolit launchers like a muzzleloader?

Just a little heads up for those who might be following and trying to replicate some of the lubes in the "QUEST" thread. No more than 5% Ivory will go into any of my lubes from here on out. I can only presume that the higher soap percentages are failing to be encapsulate the wax/oil molecules....which in turn is causing the soap to suck water out of the air and turn lube into goopy slime. My lubes with no or minimal soap did not show any such traits, just the higher % soap lubes.


Those of you that live where it gets hot and moist............You have been warned......if you live somewhere where it is always dry I guess things that work for you simply will not work for all.



thanks for listening,
Mike

[OLPDon]

Mike
Boy oh boy another lube with short comings. Well at least the Quest will go on, if TnT (thick n thin) was the grail of lubes what would we improve on? I know you said no more than 5% Ivory for your likings.
I do remember way back on the old shooters board you were surly working hard on various lubes. I remember pic’s you had posted of all the lubes you had sitting on the work bench it looked like the start of a wax bunker, and were still working on more.

So what have you narrowed it down to at this and focused on at this point?
Don
PS I have always looked forward to musings of all you Lube Guru's I had checked back on some of the past lubes that were made. And one of my favorite posters was PigeonRoostSlim. He could surly give a buildup of his new Lube the why, wherefores and why nots. El Tigeria PRS or something to that effect quite involved but it was fun to make.

[swheeler]

Mike thanks for the heads up! I don't need any rusty or pitted bores on any of my guns, most of my cast launchers don't get cleaned, just wiped down and put back in the safe. I would be one POed mudder if I put one away for a few months, pulled it out to find the barrel rusted from using some new "extreme lube."

[357maximum]

Mike
Boy oh boy another lube with short comings. Well at least the Quest will go on, if TnT (thick n thin) was the grail of lubes what would we improve on? I know you said no more than 5% Ivory for your likings.
I do remember way back on the old shooters board you were surly working hard on various lubes. I remember pic’s you had posted of all the lubes you had sitting on the work bench it looked like the start of a wax bunker, and were still working on more.

So what have you narrowed it down to at this and focused on at this point?
Don
PS I have always looked forward to musings of all you Lube Guru's I had checked back on some of the past lubes that were made. And one of my favorite posters was PigeonRoostSlim. He could surly give a buildup of his new Lube the why, wherefores and why nots. El Tigeria PRS or something to that effect quite involved but it was fun to make.

Them photos of my lube insanity days were posted on here....I was not home very often(work), online, or computer literate until right after the move here.

I have settled on two (maybe 3) lubes for "serious" work in my rifles and single shot handheld rifles. MML or MML with 5% soap added in upfront get used 95% of the time. I am still using up some Ben's Red too...it works but I prefer the simple greases over the red racing greases....still a great recipe though.....but most modded lithi-bee lubes do work good if modded properly.

I do not need all the soap and obviously the high soap lubes do not like to reside where I choose to live.

The Old NRA lube of equal parts Vaseline (6oz)/Beeswax(6oz)/Paraffin(6oz) with 1oz of Ivory added in before the beeswax is the only other lube that has made me happy. I am still working on proving it out 100% to myself in all my toys....so far so good and I am very happy with it. Seems too easy, but it works. I call it Satans lube due to the 666 in the recipe.

[Jailer]

Mike, how much soap is in that hunk you gave me to try out? It's still in the bag so it wasn't' exposed to our typical Michigan hot and sticky blast we had last week.

[357maximum]

Mike, how much soap is in that hunk you gave me to try out? It's still in the bag so it wasn't' exposed to our typical Michigan hot and sticky blast we had last week.

That is the MML with 5% ivory added in upfront....you are ok....I have had a big block of that sitting out in the shop and nothing bad has happened to it other than a mouse taking a small bite out of it. I like that lube alot, but I do not think rodents like the taste however.

[fryboy]

ummm did your mouse have a cleaner squeak ? ( inquiring minds wanna know ) any soap usually has an opposite ph to an acid ,neither extreme should be good - tho they maybe great provided you wash/neutralize soon etc , i did like the mouse tho , i've had that happen with some umm flux i left out in the shop to use ( it was high soot/tallow content ) only they seemed to either of been starving or it tasted pretty good as they ate a bit of it and left some not as fresh smelling flux in it's place [grrrr] :P

[357maximum]

Fryboy
You are very correct on the opposite an acid thing....most soaps are basic but some are caustic. The mouse did not come back for a second helping so must be your lubes taste better than mine to the rodents anyway.

Once upon a time I was using dishsoap as a lube for doing some "aggressive" push through boolit sizing in a lee type push through die. I ended up rusting the die to point of being useless except for lapping to a larger size. The press took some punishment in the rust department too but judicious amounts of elbow grease and some new paint and oil fixed the oopsie.

[runfiverun]

instead of the 50% parrafin try 40% soy wax and 10% paraffin, 50% b-wax and the 5% ivory.
it makes the lube silky soft, that's my O/D lube recipe right there..

[rlb]

Nothing wrong with the Ivory in the lube. 50% is not too much according to all of my components and firearms. No corrosion after better than 4 months of testing. Go figure.

[btroj]

No issues here. Must be a different kind of humidity in MI.

[geargnasher]

Nothing wrong with the Ivory in the lube. 50% is not too much according to all of my components and firearms. No corrosion after better than 4 months of testing. Go figure.

Don't confuse conjured myth with fact, speculation with results, theory vs. testing, or trolling vs. those wanting to improve the craft of shooting cast boolits.

Na Stearate doesn't necessarily attract water like silica gel does, but it will absorb water if water is introduced to it. It will also lose water it absorbs just as readily when the moisture is removed. Anyone who has cut into an old, dried-out bar of Ivory soap knows this, in fact that's why Ivory comes in water-tight wrappers. Several others of us have done extensive testing of soap lubes over the past couple of years and all results, including a detailed water spray test and ASTM copper strip testing that in one instance is just over two years running, all with 100% negative results for rust, oxidation, or corrosion.

These tests have been and are being done because of ME. I am the one who was concerned about Na stearate's ability to emulsify oil and water in the first place (as are some other common grease thickeners made from metal salts like Li stearate and Sb stearate) and set about seeing if it was an issue at all with the items and conditions to which an "extreme" boolit lube would be subjected during manufacture, storage, application, shooting, and the effects of soap-lube residue in barrels.

Soap lube was not my idea, and it would floor a lot of people here to discover that a very popular commercial lube out there which has been used by many competitive shooters for decades happens to contain a very high concentration of soap, and just what kind of soap it is.

The correct term for something that has an affinity for water is "Hygroscopic" ("hydroscopic" isn't even a word), which as it turns out Na stearate really isn't, even though it will dissolve completely in water and emulsify oil and water.

Also, there has been some misinformation presented here comparing dishwashing detergent and Ivory soap and falsely projecting the corrosive effects of detergent on steel to Ivory. Without testing, a chemical formula describing the reactions, and some solid evidence this is merely meaningless conjecture. It is also an example of one of the most basic of the Logical Fallacies. Big difference between detergents and soaps is soaps are made from metal salts and detergents are made from phosphates. But when one's agenda is other than facts there's no need to learn about any of that factual, technical, chemical stuff.

Speaking of information, if the pH of Ivory soap bothers you, add stearic acid to it until it becomes neutral. Get some base/neutral litmus test strips and check your work.

If anyone isn't comfortable with soap, contact Glen Larsen via link at the bottom of the page to purchase some very good and useful boolit lubes.

I still can't get my head around the concept of making a lube that has qualities that will never be needed. Must just be fear of being left out or left behind.

Gear

[M Hicks]

I thought "Apache Blue" was one of the first lubes to use soap as a main component. If I remember correctly it was some where around, if not over, 30%. I think Kelly started it, passed it onto Veral and LBT became a variant.

So if people have been using LBT as their lube you are saying they should stop due to the fact it will ruin their firearms?

[runfiverun]

it's full of a stearate similar to sodium stearate.
but then again alox is too.
and so is lithi-bee.
lithium grease contains water as an ingredient.
anhydrous lanolin contains water as an ingredient.
b-wax can be corrosive.
waterproof marine grease contains water [3% average] as an ingredient.

[357maximum]

I still can't get my head around the concept of making a lube that has qualities that will never be needed. Must just be fear of being left out or left behind.

Gear

Finally we agree 100% on something. Glad you took the week or so to compose that thought....THANK YOU

[M Hicks]

Finally we agree 100% on something. Glad you took the week or so to compose that thought....THANK YOU

That is kind of bold...

I would like your input regarding LBT and if it is a bad lube or poses a threat to firearms due to its ingredients.

What was your process for making the failure test lubes that you were going to compile into one mixture? Some ingredients will require more working after it has begun to cool and set. Just pouring it into a container or form won't work.

[geargnasher]

Them photos of my lube insanity days were posted on here....I was not home very often(work), online, or computer literate until right after the move here.

I have settled on two (maybe 3) lubes for "serious" work in my rifles and single shot handheld rifles. MML or MML with 5% soap added in upfront get used 95% of the time. I am still using up some Ben's Red too...it works but I prefer the simple greases over the red racing greases....still a great recipe though.....but most modded lithi-bee lubes do work good if modded properly.

I do not need all the soap and obviously the high soap lubes do not like to reside where I choose to live.

The Old NRA lube of equal parts Vaseline (6oz)/Beeswax(6oz)/Paraffin(6oz) with 1oz of Ivory added in before the beeswax is the only other lube that has made me happy. I am still working on proving it out 100% to myself in all my toys....so far so good and I am very happy with it. Seems too easy, but it works. I call it Satans lube due to the 666 in the recipe.

If you don't need the soap where you live, then why did you ever mess with it in the first place?

Gear

[robertbank]

Each of you has an ignore option, I would ask you to use it where appropriate. I'll leave this thread open but if it goes the way the last one did it too will be closed.

Take Care

Bob

[357maximum]

If you don't need the soap where you live, then why did you ever mess with it in the first place?

Gear

Good question.......the answer is dependant on which "lube craze" you speak of...
1. Some commercial lubes have some of it in them, and "WHAT IF" has always appealed to me.
2. I can be a total moron that is just naive enough to believe what is posted on the internet.
3. Everyone else was doing it.
4. I did not know what I know before I knew it.

[btroj]

1- I can buy that
2- in total agreement with the first 6 words
3-everyone? Maybe a small handful. 5 to 10 people isn't "everyone". BT your mother didn't buy that either.
4-what, exactly, is it that you now KNOW? I see lots of posts about what you don't know but what about what you do know?

If you are banned from this section why do you keep popping up?