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Thread: BATF Question Regarding Removable Stocks on Pistols

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    BATF Question Regarding Removable Stocks on Pistols

    Well, I was just reading about a problem a feller had with a Rossi Ranch Hand POA and Factory target being incompatible with his gun when I came across this quote that a "Cast" member relied with.

    "If you make a three to four inch lace up removable butt pad for it it is perfectly legal according to BATF since you can take it right off and it is not a fixed full length stock. The BTAF would take the same view if you put a rubber grip over your existing pistol grips."

    I live in Michigan, so we cannot have Short Barreled Carbines of any sort so I will direct this to others in more forgiving states.

    Can a guy make a detachable stock out of wood or some other material and attach that piece to his/her pistol and still be legal? I think a Smith and Wesson 460 X frame would be quite the firearm if a guy had the choice of shooting it like a pistol or attaching a shoulder stock if he needed to reach out and touch something at a long distance.

    If it is legal, is there any criteria on how the bindings interact with the firearm itself. Would they have to be a quick detach set up, or could somone clamp them down with nuts and bolts?

  2. #2
    Fuzzy Boolit


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    Rossi Ranch Hand is manufactured as a handgun. I wouldn't convert it to a shoulder fired weapon under any circumstances. This firearm is blurring the line between handguns and long guns and I have no desire to test those waters in court. For the same reason all my TC Contenders are pistols. They were sold as handguns and will always be handguns. I won't keep a T/C shoulder stock around because an overzealous BATFE agent could make life miserable for me.
    Life Member NRA, TSRA
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master freebullet's Avatar
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    I'm no lawyer or atf rep, but to my understanding "once a rifle always a rifle". Mere possession of such a device could be viewed as manufacturing a sbr. To my understanding adding a forward grip to a pistol turns it instantly into a sbr also. I believe this has to do with a pistol being defined as a gun that has one grip to be fired with one hand or sum such malarkey. When in doubt go to the atf website. Of course if the barrel is longer then 16" then its a rifle and you can use whatever grip ya want- fer now.

  4. #4
    Automated Master Caster

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    Forward pistol grip on a pistol is a AOW not SBR.

    Adding a slip on type butt pad doesn't change anything.
    Its not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

    Its not any different than those with ar 15 pistols putting foam on the buffer tube.
    Currently Loading : 9x18 mak, 9mm luger, 38sp, 357 mag, 32-20, 40 sw, 10mm , 44-40, 44sp, 44 mag, 38-40, 41 mag, 45 colt, 22 hornet, 22 TCM, 300 bo
    I cast for all of them except the 22 hornet and the 22 TCM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master


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    Do what you want. Your gun and your not harming anyone or anything.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Artful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgtonory View Post
    Do what you want. Your gun and your not harming anyone or anything.
    OMG - LOL - google BATF - ATFE - these people don't honor their own decisions about what's legal
    If you want to put a buttstock on a pistol I'd suggest you register it as SBR and CYA

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Yup, still as confused as ever.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    birch,
    If you pay $200. (NFA charge) you can put any kind of stock you want on a handgun(if legal in your state) because it is now an SBR. If you don't pay, DON'T play! Today it may be illegal to even think about doing it.
    Ramar
    AMERICAN EX-PRISONERS OF WAR -- NON SOLUM ARMIS

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    In the '80's there was a pistol stock that was not attached, the back of the grips sat in a molded groove in the plastic stock, and was held together by the hand.
    This was supposed to get around the ATF in that it was not attached to the gun.
    There were a couple of magazine articles about it, but it disappeared. I don't know if the ATF got it, or it just fizzled out.
    Best,
    Mike

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  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    IIRC it was July 2011 that the ATF published a letter concerning this. If the gun is manufactured both as a handgun and a rifle then it can be converted from one to the other, but under no circumstances can it have a shoulder stock with a barrel shorter than 16" without the proper tax stamp. So with a gun like a Contender or Encore take it down to the frame and build it back up.
    This letter also referenced a pistol that slips into a rifle stock with a rifle barrel already attached to it.
    I spoke with an ATF agent here in Phoenix and he said they were trying to determine if this would also hold true for the AR type pistols.
    If you google ATF Rul. 2001-4 you should find the link to the letter.
    Last edited by leadman; 05-28-2013 at 11:51 AM.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    I would go the other direction , don't modify the gun in any way from factory , but , if you have thick clothing on and you held say that buffer tube to outside of the thick clothing

    frankly the rules need to change and we should just call everything under 16 inches of barrel a pistol and everything over a rifle or since bull pups change the conceal-ability of a barrel longer than 16 inches , perhaps all guns shorter than 27 inches are pistols no matter how they are fired from hand or shoulder and anything that is purchased as a pistol or other can be made any length the owner wants.

    right now you can tell the rules were made by people who hadn't a clue

    tell me why a single shot 410 smooth bore pistol is some how more dangerous than a identical pistol with with light rifling and needs the AOW registration , none of it makes any sense.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Actually the rules need to be changed back to "shall not infringe" ... And just called a "firearm"!

    Of course there is no money to be made, or power trip enjoyed by doing that!
    Shawn


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    "I am a man of peace, but if war comes to my door it will find me home."

    Winston Churchill

  13. #13
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgtonory View Post
    Do what you want. Your gun and your not harming anyone or anything.
    That sounds nice in theory but completely ignores to possibility of time in a Federal penitentiary without possibility of parole and hefty fines plus being a convicted felon, convicted of a gun crime and the loss of all gun and voting rights for life. It could hurt your family if they depend on you as the breadwinner.

    Curios and relics like the Broomhandle Mauser are allowed their wooden holster/stock but they are the exception rather than the rule.

    David
    There is only one way of compromising the on Second Amendment. That is when Liberals call for Conservatives to compromise. What they really mean "give up just a little more of your rights just this once"- every time they call for compromise. Molon Labe!

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    I think a pistol is a pistol and a rifle is a rifle. I have no desire or intention of adding a shoulder stock as I own and shoot pistols for target and accuracy--something not many people can do well and I am still learning. I am however a student of the gun and to me, knowledge is key. I was just wondering about the legality of it as I could see a great and potential market if the ATF indeed says it is OK. Here in Michigan, it seems that anyone who owns an encore or contender like to change stocks and barrels, and I know that the ATF and local law enforcement have deemed it OK to do so with no legal issues. It is just seems that if Thompson Center can get away with that sort of physical arrangement, then why not Smith and Wesson? I see a potential market if the powers that be would allow it.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    Let me tell you by EXPERIENCE, DON'T DO IT.

    I did it, and ATF found out about it. I was up for 10 years in prison and many, many thousands in fines.

    This was over 30 years ago when I was young and very ignorant. Fortunately, they let me off as well as put they fear of God of in me!

    To this day I follow every gun law to the letter and don't joke about it.

    These guys ARE serious!

    Don't even think about it, Trust Me, PLease!
    TEAM HOLLYWOOD

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  16. #16
    Boolit Head


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgtonory View Post
    Do what you want. Your gun and your not harming anyone or anything.
    That's great advice.........if you don't mind looking at bars for the next 10-20 years! BATF has no flexibility and no sense of humor. When they come after you they mean business. And how they enforce the rules is subject to change at any time. And may vary from one section of the country to the other.

    If in doubt......DON'T!!


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  17. #17
    Boolit Master Silver Eagle's Avatar
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    Is this the reason you can no longer find the 10" barrels and shoulder stocks for the 1911's? I remember some old catalogs and advertisements that had these and though it was a cool idea. Now, I no longer see either the longer barrels or the shoulder stocks available anyplace.
    Silver Eagle

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  18. #18
    Fuzzy Boolit


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Eagle View Post
    Is this the reason you can no longer find the 10" barrels and shoulder stocks for the 1911's? I remember some old catalogs and advertisements that had these and though it was a cool idea. Now, I no longer see either the longer barrels or the shoulder stocks available anyplace.

    Quite possibly. To play it safe remember that a handgun is a handgun, a long gun is a long gun. Anything that blurs the line is likely a felony with possible federal pen time or a chance to buy your lawyer's next new car, if you're lucky.
    Life Member NRA, TSRA
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    Anyone google the letter I referenced above? I would post a link but can't figure out how to do it.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    The real question is are you willing to give up your rights to possess a firearm for the rest of your life along with jail time and huge fines. All it takes is the wrong person to see this thing and it's all over. Just one of your buddies talks to someone and the word gets to the wrong person and it's all over. Are the actions worth the consequences. Your choice

    gmsharps

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