Some ramblings and questions about bullet coating

[Dolomite_supafly]

Let me start by saying that I shoot enough that my lead levels are elevated enough that I have refrained from casting or shooting cast bullets in my AR chambered in 300 Blackout. After a few hours at the range my face was almost always black so I know I was inhaling some. The gases come out of the side of the bolt and my face is less than six inches away. I think this is the significant source of my lead levels which were elevated to 10 where 4 is considered the point where it becomes a concern.

I did/do take precautions when casting and making ingots. I always cast outside and always wear a mask anytime I am making ingots from wheel weights. When I cast bullets from clean ingots I make sure to wear a mask if there is no wind. I wear long sleeves, long pants and shoes. And the second I am done I take off the clothes and take a shower. When I am handling the lead, such as loading, I always washed my hands afterwards (I wear gloves now). So the only source of exposure I can think of is when I shoot. So I need something to seperate the lead from the hot gases with bullets to be shot in my AR.

I was initially going to powder coat but from the begining I thought to myself it was a lot of work. Especially since I shoot a lot. Setup cost is also a consideration. The powder has a cancer warning associated with it as well.

Then I happened onto the epoxy paint method. They use a two part epoxy paint and add HBn to the mixture as the lubricant. I think this is a perfect method is for me but I have yet to find a paint that doesn't take a day to cure. What I am looking for is a thin paint that also cures in about an hour.

And while I was looking for some HBn to buy I realized that stuff is EXPENSIVE. I realize it doesn't take much to work but $20 for a 1/2 ounce is a lot. This got me wondering again, yeah I know it is dangerous, at to what other materials might work that are less expensive. Well in my search I found some extremely fine copper powder that seems like a possible substitute.

My thoughts are they use copper for jackets so why wouldn't it work as a bullet lube that is suspended in the paint.

So what is the general consensus, will copper work for a lube in place of HBN?

And would a acrylic, polyurethane or other type of two part paint work as well as epoxy paint to hold the copper?

Just some random thoughts on making our hobby cheaper and or better.

[TheDoctor]

Not sure about the bullet coating, but are you using a vibratory tumbler to clean your brass? That can be a big time exposure issue.

[bstone5]

The powder coating works well, the gun and powder are cheap from Harbor Freight, A table top convection oven is also cheap especially if purchased at a thrift store or Good Will. I got a new GE oven from Target for $70.00.

There is a thread on powder coating and Ken the guy who started the thread powder coats cast lead bullets for the 3000 Blackout.

The epoxy paint from Germany is also cured in a convection oven.

The powder coat removes all lead and seals the bullet.

[fcvan]

I read on here about a guy using 'cat sneeze' gallery loads with graphite. I can't help but think that graphite might be a suitable substitute for HBN. What about molybendum disulfide? either of those two would seem less expensive that HBN.

Personally, I powder coat but still want to look at epoxy coating some to try the process. I have tried copper electroplating and that was by far the most labor intensive. For now, it takes me longer to load my boolits onto the rack I use for coating and baking. The end result looks great and many shooters attest to great performance with PCd boolits.

[HDS]

Not sure about the bullet coating, but are you using a vibratory tumbler to clean your brass? That can be a big time exposure issue.

I do that but I don't keep it in the house and when it runs it's outside (and some water & polishing compound added). Also wash your hands obsessively after handling lead, I also wash them after handling reloading equipment and guns. I have a pair of overalls I wear when I cast as well to protect my normal clothes.


For the coating question I would just get a toaster oven and cure the bullets in that.

[xacex]

I have shot my blackout with lead boolits for several hours, and never ended up with a black face. This has been discussed before, and if lead exposure was an issue in an AR or M16 it would come from the lead styphnate in the primer. If this was the case the military would not be still using the weapons system to this day. There are several ways you can be exposed to lead in reloading without casting lead, or shooting lead so saying that your weapon, and cast boolits is the cause is a blanket statement. Primers, spent and new, and tumblers are of primary concern to me. Elevated lead levels can be caused by not using a primer catchment system, and tumbling in an enclosed room with a dry media.
If you still suspect your weapon look around for some post that will dispel that myth, and start coating. The folk over on ARF love to spread misinformation on the subject.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I used the piglet method, as it will probably be called now, yesterday and it works perfectly. The second coat works extremely well. I shot yesterday using pure lead bullets that would ALWAYS lead the bore from the first shot and no leading using this method. I will say I added some copper dust to the mix because I had it but I plan on leaving it out for the next batch.

After two coats the bullets are .004" thicker and totally encapusulated.

I added enough acetone to barely cover the bottom of a gallon bucket. Then I dumped 5 Lee dippers that were .7cc full of powder coating powder. I swirled it up good until the powder coat disolved into what looks like the consistency of Testor's paint. Then I added about 50 bullets. I swirled them around until the acetone was almost evaporated then I dumped the bullets out onto a piece of hardware cloth with 1/4" opening. Then I alllowed them to finish drying. Then I put them into a toaster oven at 400 degree for a little over 10 minutes. Then I open the door and alow them to cool.

Initiallly I was worried about being able to size them down but the size just like a regular bullet. I also did a smach test and the stuff remains adhered to the bullet. They don't look as shiny as the others pictured here but I think for the $11 I spent on materials I can take a dull colored bullet.

[bmiller]

What kind of powder did you use?

[Dolomite_supafly]

I used red powder that Harbor Freight sells. It is either $4.98 or $5.98 per pound. I am going to order soem different colors from Ebay. With shipping they are about the same as HF but with a much bigger selection of colors.



These look a bit rough because I was still tumbling them as they dried but I found that if I dump them out onto the screen while they are still wet they have a much smoother appearance. Also, having a rough finish isn't that bad if you decide on tumble lubing but I cannot see a reason why. I fired some 157 grains coated cast bullets at 2K fps and the bore looks great. It was in an AR and it cycled great as well. It will be interesting to see if the gas rings get clogged like before after a day of shooting.

I coated some that had been previously lubed with Alox. They work great as well but it seems like they might flake a little easier. If they are as cast you cannot scrap them off with a fingernail. You can scrap it off with sharp metal but it is still difficult.

[bmiller]

I tried red hf powder with the piglet method and I did not have nearly as good as results that you did. I had too much powder and not enough acetone. When I get a chance , I will give it another try.

[olaf455]

I used two parts acetone to 1 part powder, I think I will try 3 to 1 next time.

[leeggen]

If I had a rifle that thru that much black on me I would be doing some real close inspection. Is the black, powder or is it lead???? Where is it coming from???? Revaluewait your lead handleing, pouring, cleaning so on and on. Double check your process from bulk lead to bullet firing. Just my thoughts.
CD

[Dolomite_supafly]

I must have made it sound worse than it is but I will say that after shooting my nose has a very dry feeling to it and sometimes burns a little after shooting a few hundred cast bullets out of the AR. It feels like being in a really dry enviroment.

I have revamped how I handle everything lead related. I haven't cast a single bullet since mid February. I am going to shoot up most of what I have cast right now before I start casting again. Every cast bullet I have touched since then has been with rubber gloves and in the off chance I do handle a few bullets without a glove I wash thoroughly and immediately. When I start casting from ingots again I will be casting inside a wooden box with a range hood on top. The air will be drawn away and dumped at least 25 feet away. And if I think that isn't good enough I will be using a Tyvek suit with a better mask. I plan on doing it when cleaning up wheel weights anyways.

Based on what TheDoctor has said I will be doing all my tumbling outside from now on too. I might even break out my wife's rock polisher and use SS media in liquid.

Coating the bullets is part of the plan to minimize my exposure to lead because I honestly believe it was a source for me based on the dry, sore nose after a day at the range. The range I shoot at is a concrete building with very little airflow even though it is open so smoke lingers on calm day. When I shot/shoot jacketed bullets I do not have the same stuff happen as when I shoot cast. I can shoot hundreds of jacketed bullets without my nose getting sore but when I shoot cast I get the nose problem so it is something related to the bullet or the lube. I used Lee Alox to tumble lube the bullets.

I have found that you cannot use too much acetone. It will just take a little longer to evaporate. I found a 1.9cc Lee dipper and for about 25-35 rifle bullets I add one. Then I add enough acetone that is is higher than the powder pile. I swirl it around very vigorously to start it dissolving. Then I add a couple of bullets and continue to swirl as it dissolves. Once completely dissolved I add the rest of the bullets and if need be add more acetone. I continue to tumble and swirl until the acetone no long pools on the bottom of a tilted bucket. The second the acetone isn't pooling I dump the bullets out onto the screen. They look and are still very wet. I let the finish "drying" for another 3-4 minutes and they will dry to a shine. Then I put them in the toaster oven for 10 minutes at 400 degrees.

I have also found out you can do this process to bullets that have already been lubed with Alox. You just need to put a little more acetone in the bucket to wash them better. The powder coat adheres really well but some do have some flake off.

I am using Harbor Freight powder coating and a blue and yellow tin of acetone.

[TheDoctor]

What I do for tumbling, and it may be overkill and totally unnecessary, is this. I first decap my brass using a LM, which will hold the spent primers in the ram. Then I will ultrasonic the brass with a solution of water, dish soap, and lemi shine. After thoroughly rinsing the brass and disposing of the solution, brass gets dried of course. Then it gets tumbled until lightly polished, then it gets ultrasonic'd a second time. Why twice? Your tumbling media will probably at some get some lead contamination no matter what you do, and you will get lead residue on the brass itself. Not everyone is as conscientious about handling brass as handling lead are they? Running through an ultrasonic will get at least the majority of the lead into a solution, and not into the air, or on your skin.

[popper]

Dolomite_supafly - you shooting those subsonic (no GC)? I'd work on the blow-by problem - HS or anneal the cases. You left handed? EDIT: i missed the part where you said you use Lee Alox. That's the problem.

already been lubed with Alox

Floats the alox off & allows good coating. I wash the alox off first. You guys using piglet method, how is the accuracy? I'm thinking the bases aren't very good for HV PB. Probably don't care much about the nose roughness unless there is a seating problem. I'm not excited about breathing acetone fumes but it might be a good fast method for pistol.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I am going to coat everything I shoot now. I can see a difference in the amount of smoke.

There was no leading in the bore to indicate there is blowby in my AR. I am using a very fast powder so the bullets should be obturating just fine. The bullets are "as cast" wheel weights, not water dropped. They are running .310" before seating and came out of the case at .309".

I had done plenty of shooting with the same bullets, both before and after coating in my Savage. The are the NOE 200 grain "pointy" bullets. And after the coating the groups tightened up a bit. I coat the bullets with two baked on layers and they seem to add about .003" to the bullet. I do not size them and just seat them straight into the belled case. I haven't checked to see if they are getting squeezed down any but honestly I don't care because they shoot so well.

I am shooting them out of a Savage Striker so far. Maybe in a day or two I will grab my AR and see how they work in it.

[AKholicBubba]

This was a good thread

[myg30]

Dolo, your lead level of 10 is not really any trouble yet but it is an indication that you are getting lead from someplace. Probably just the smoke from shooting.
Years back at work we had blood test fer lead and mine was 10 vs everyone else<1. I had been shooting 2 days that week at an indoor range that was smoked up from mostly .38's being fired. This is an old range that was grandfathered in before hepa filtration took over.
A BLL of 40 is getting where it needs attention. There were many posts here about BLL's. Much more critical of you were a younging ?
Correcting it now is a good thing. Vit C will help bring it down faster. Good luck shooting.

Mike

[JBinMN]

Dolo, your lead level of 10 is not really any trouble yet but it is an indication that you are getting lead from someplace. Probably just the smoke from shooting.
Years back at work we had blood test fer lead and mine was 10 vs everyone else<1. I had been shooting 2 days that week at an indoor range that was smoked up from mostly .38's being fired. This is an old range that was grandfathered in before hepa filtration took over.
A BLL of 40 is getting where it needs attention. There were many posts here about BLL's. Much more critical of you were a younging ?
Correcting it now is a good thing. Vit C will help bring it down faster. Good luck shooting.

Mike

The OP has not been checked in using that name on the site for 3 years or so. Just so ya knew.

[randyrat]

How accurate is that test? What about lead from primers? That is where most of the lead smoke would come from. Just wear a mask when you shoot that gun and wash your hands with baby wipes at the range..You will survive!
Have you ever had a "Base line test" to start.Ever think maybe your levels of lead were higher to begin with? Water supply? Did you chew the window sills when you were a kid?

I have loaded with lead (started with shotgun) for about 40 years ago , cast, handle a lot of lead, shoot, grew up in and old house full of lead paint and don't have elevated levels of lead in me.


Drink diatomaceous earth (very inexpensive) with fruit juice, 1 tsp helps removes heavy metals, if your worried about it. Read about it.

Refresh and old thread for who ever is interested