RotoMetals2Titan ReloadingStainLess Steel MediaInline Fabrication
Lee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters SupplyBallisti-CastGraf & Sons
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 71

Thread: Square lube groove vs rounded - pros and cons

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    10,459
    The question, which is being dodged, is round bottom vs. flat bottom lube grooves on Keith style bullets.

    I am still looking for a body of knowledge to back up claims of undefined para-normal shooting feats. It is impossible to evaluate such claims, so they must be disregarded. Anecdotal accounts of who did what, fails to impress me or just about anybody else around here that has been painted as "uknowing". I am also unimpressed with cell phone pics of targets.

    When somebody turns in this kind of performance in a registered Cast Bullet Association match with ten shot groups, witnesses and scores, I will pay attention, very close attention. In other words, I will believe it when it is printed in The Fouling Shot.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  2. #22
    Boolit Designer 45 2.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Little Egypt, Part of the political fifedom of Chicago
    Posts
    7,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    I don't think it is any deep dark secret, particularly to us grey heads, that Elmer Keith used a binary alloy of 1-16 (tin to lead) for his magnum sixgun bullets and the good old sticky Lyman/Ideal black bullet lube.

    1-16 has a Brinell hardness of about eleven which is close to what I get with my batch of crimp on wheelweights. I still use a soft and sticky lube that requires no heater.

    But the question was not what did Keith do, but about the rounds vs. flat bottom grease groove and is their any clear evidence on if better than another. I don't think that has been answered.

    I have fired many Keith bullets including 358429. 452423, 454424 and 429421 of the original design coming from old unvented mold bocks as well as 358429, 452423 and 429421 late 60's vintage round groove molds. I have fired them from 1-16 and ACWW and lubed them with a variety of soft lubes including black sticky Lyman/Ideal of which I still have a goodly supply. This is pretty much an apples and apples comparison real Keith bullets, alloy and lube.

    The bottom line is I have yet to detect any real, repeatable differences in lube groove design based on my shooting over 50 years with these bullets.

    For the record: I cast my first Keith bullet (452423) in 1959, read everything Keith wrote, corresponded with him and even had the pleasure of spending a couple hours with him, Bill Jordon and a couple of others around a table drinking whisky and telling gun stories.

    I don't think all of us are as ignorant, inexperienced and generally in the dark on the subject at hand, as some would make it seem.
    Keith used 16:1 lead/tin....... he considered it a hard alloy and a stable one with no age hardening ingredients except for trace amounts.

    That Lyman lube has a history.... do you know it and it's the lube's proper name? Lyman sure didn't come up with it, but it sure is darned good stuff.

    Please Charles, spending a little time with Keith and other worthies does not make you equal to them........ and you aren't Elmer either. He knew what to do with a handgun (short and long range) and was ostracized for it for many years when others considered what he said and wrote as fabrication.
    45 2.1

    Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

    Never sleep, never die

    Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    10,459
    Quote Originally Posted by 45 2.1 View Post
    Keith used 16:1 lead/tin....... he considered it a hard alloy and a stable one with no age hardening ingredients except for trace amounts.

    That Lyman lube has a history.... do you know it and it's the lube's proper name? Lyman sure didn't come up with it, but it sure is darned good stuff.

    Please Charles, spending a little time with Keith and other worthies does not make you equal to them........ and you aren't Elmer either. He knew what to do with a handgun (short and long range) and was ostracized for it for many years when others considered what he said and wrote as fabrication.
    You still have not told me anything I don't know and in fact agree with. You still have not talked about the subject of this thread, i.e. round vs. flat bottom lube grooves on Keith style bullets. I am still waiting for this deep knowledge on that subject that none of the rest of us has.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  4. #24
    Boolit Designer 45 2.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Little Egypt, Part of the political fifedom of Chicago
    Posts
    7,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    The question, which is being dodged, is round bottom vs. flat bottom lube grooves on Keith style bullets.
    Elmer wrote about such things. I proved it to myself out of a scoped Rem. M788 rifle in 44 Mag at 200 yards some 30+ odd years ago. I have no need to prove it to you or anybody else here, but the round lube grooves shot MOA for 5 shot groups and the altered flat bottom ones shot 5/8 to 3/4 MOA for 5 shot groups on the same day in the same hour and conditions... one group after the other alternating types with the same barrel condition. A 70's era Lyman 429421 round lube groove boolit to Elmer's specs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    I am still looking for a body of knowledge to back up claims of undefined para-normal shooting feats. It is impossible to evaluate such claims, so they must be disregarded. Anecdotal accounts of who did what, fails to impress me or just about anybody else around here that has been painted as "unknowing". I am also unimpressed with cell phone pics of targets.
    Elmer was vindicated near the end of his life, many years after he told others what he did and what he used. Maybe you need to find out what was used and how it was used and try it yourself. The how is most of the problem with trying to duplicate things along with ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    When somebody turns in this kind of performance in a registered Cast Bullet Association match with ten shot groups, witnesses and scores, I will pay attention, very close attention. In other words, I will believe it when it is printed in The Fouling Shot.
    So, nothing on this forum is worth much but what comes out of the south end of a north bound male bovine...... So You Say and Allude to.
    45 2.1

    Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

    Never sleep, never die

    Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.

  5. #25
    Boolit Designer 45 2.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Little Egypt, Part of the political fifedom of Chicago
    Posts
    7,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    You still have not talked about the subject of this thread, i.e. round vs. flat bottom lube grooves on Keith style bullets. I am still waiting for this deep knowledge on that subject that none of the rest of us has.
    I suspect several people here know exactly what I do about Elmer's boolits (it's no secret if you have the determination to duplicate it), but they have no wish to talk with some of the people here who don't believe and just want to palaver OR those that have no idea what to do to prove what was said.
    45 2.1

    Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

    Never sleep, never die

    Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    10,459
    Quote Originally Posted by 45 2.1 View Post
    Here we have a thread that has lots of opinions and little knowledge posted...... just like most of the others threads about the same thing in the past. Very very few folks take the time to find out what really does happen or why certain things were done in the past.
    OK..Now we know your empirical evidence that allows you to have such lofty opinions as above. 30 years ago, you shot some groups from a 44 Magnum rifle and the issue is settled for all times.

    This is sorta what I expected, but had to drag it out of you.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  7. #27
    Boolit Designer 45 2.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Little Egypt, Part of the political fifedom of Chicago
    Posts
    7,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    OK..Now we know your empirical evidence that allows you to have such lofty opinions as above. 30 years ago, you shot some groups from a 44 Magnum rifle and the issue is settled for all times.

    This is sorta what I expected, but had to drag it out of you.
    Your words..... you do know what assumptions make you. What part of "I proved it to myself" do you not understand?
    45 2.1

    Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

    Never sleep, never die

    Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    10,459
    Bobby, I will take leave of this exchange and replace you on ignore. I think folks reading this exchange can figure this stuff out with what they have before them.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  9. #29
    Boolit Designer 45 2.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Little Egypt, Part of the political fifedom of Chicago
    Posts
    7,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Bobby, I will take leave of this exchange and replace you on ignore. I think folks reading this exchange can figure this stuff out with what they have before them.
    Please do so and remain so........... I have no wish to banter with you when you could have asked a direct question and didn't. You said "The question, which is being dodged, is round bottom vs. flat bottom lube grooves on Keith style bullets"....... and left out pros and cons with no question asked, just an incomplete sentence. In the first post he asked for " some feedback", not proof as you have made it out.

    You also did not answer my last direct question..... and folks reading this exchange can figure that out also.
    45 2.1

    Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

    Never sleep, never die

    Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master DrCaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    981
    Thanks for the background provided and bits of experience. That is about all I can ask for, since I know this is a 'debate' with no true consensus to be arrived at.

    I didn't expect things to heat up this much, but hey it's probably better to happen here than in a saloon where fists may fly and then people lose their freedom.

    It seems like I will be looking more toward flat-bottom groove styles, but that it shouldn't be a more decisive factor than chamber, throat, and barrel fit.

    It seems like pan lubing would work better with a square/flat groove due to a sharper cutting of the lube as the boolit is removed. Although my 358429 with rounded groove pan lubes quite well.

    Bore alignment as mentioned somewhere in the thread seems like it would be better with a sharp driving band corner. Further, a more square groove will allow more lube capacity per length of boolit consumed, thereby allowing more length for driving bands for a given boolit weight and length.

    Does the previous paragraph seem like a good summary of what has been said? Am I getting it?

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,705
    Quote Originally Posted by DrCaveman View Post
    a more square groove will allow more lube capacity per length of boolit consumed, thereby allowing more length for driving bands for a given boolit weight and length.
    Close. Groove depth needs to be considered as well, and the lost lube capacity effect is less pronounced the more obtuse the draft angle gets.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    cody wy
    Posts
    650
    The rifle black powder designs have flat bottom grease grooves do they not? Recover some bullets and put a micrometer to them. Lots to learn if you quit the pissing match.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master DrCaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    981
    Quote Originally Posted by frank505 View Post
    The rifle black powder designs have flat bottom grease grooves do they not? Recover some bullets and put a micrometer to them. Lots to learn if you quit the pissing match.
    Frank

    Is the micrometer measuring the final diameter of the lube groove, looking for growth via compression or centrifugal force or something? Not sure what the recovery of the boolits is telling us here, but im all ears.

    Pretend there is no pissing match, and please carry on with discussion of flat-bottom lube groove boolits vs round lube groove boolits. Im hoping that a few more cold-hard facts regarding performance will show themselves.

    While everyone will still have their personal preference and attitude, a succinct list of pros and cons will allow me (and others) to make an informed decision based on our needs or wants

  14. #34
    Boolit Master DrCaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    981
    Quote Originally Posted by Oreo View Post
    Close. Groove depth needs to be considered as well, and the lost lube capacity effect is less pronounced the more obtuse the draft angle gets.
    Got it. My concern was not to maximize lube capacity, but rather to maximize driving band length for a given boolit length and weight. Based on what you are saying, a nearly-right-angled draft angle (say 7 degrees obtuse) which led to a lube groove of say 65% driving band diameter (pretty deep, yes?) could allow one to get away with a pretty short lube groove. Right?

    Im guessing there is a threshold of drive band diameter ratio to lube groove diameter above which the boolit gets very difficult to drop from mold. Am i wrong?

    So i hope this discussion may add a new element: in the interest of maximizing driving band length, and given the high-quality lubes we have at our disposal these days, how deep of a flat-bottomed lube groove can one get away with while still being able to cast boolits at a reasonable rate?

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    4,968
    Take a look at the Lee truncated cone in 40 S&W and 9mm. These have very shallow flat bottomed lube grooves that hold enough to get the boolit out the end of the barrel without leading the bore. Not sure a really deep LG is needed as it certainly can be a pain to cast with.
    You could coat your boolits with the HI-Tek bullet coating so you do not need to worry about wax type lube. I tested some 30-06 last week at 1950 fps and no leading at all. My 41 mag boolits had up to 1,340 fps with no leading and excellent accuracy. I do plan further tests.

    Maybe it is time to move beyond the conventional wax type lubes?

  16. #36
    Boolit Master

    123.DieselBenz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Cochise County, AZ
    Posts
    2,832
    I can't tell you wether the lube groove shrank from the powder pushing it, or it being shot into water ...

    MiHec's 434640


    And an HP version of the above boolit ... Left shot into the shredded rubber mulch, and on the right shot into water ... What I could find!



    And MiHec's 359640 shot into water

    Last edited by 123.DieselBenz; 05-20-2013 at 11:44 PM.
    Shawn


    John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    "I am a man of peace, but if war comes to my door it will find me home."

    Winston Churchill

  17. #37
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Montana, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,287
    If you really want to recover boolits with nearly no damage from being stopped and all the deformation on them being from the trip down the bore. Fire them into a snow drift. Not a big ice berm piled up by a plow, a natural blown snow, powdery snow drift and then recover them. That is the best medium I have ever found to stop a boolit, even one fired from a high powered rifle at high velocity without damaging the boolit in any detectable way. Be prepared to shovel and sift through a lot of snow and have a big snow drift to shoot into. Penetration to stopping depth is measured in feet or even yards.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,705
    Quote Originally Posted by DrCaveman View Post
    Got it. My concern was not to maximize lube capacity, but rather to maximize driving band length for a given boolit length and weight. Based on what you are saying, a nearly-right-angled draft angle (say 7 degrees obtuse) which led to a lube groove of say 65% driving band diameter (pretty deep, yes?) could allow one to get away with a pretty short lube groove. Right?
    I was speaking only about the mater of geometry. In that sense, yes you can make a deep narrow lube groove with the same volume as a shallow wider groove. That says nothing about performance of either the mold or the boolit.

    I found in my research that a lube groove need only be a little deeper then the rifling on the barrel, however going too much deeper then that can cause problems. I don't pretend to have a deep understanding of what those problems might be or what else contributes.

    Don't get obsessed with splitting hairs over minutia. You're asking good questions but its easy to look at a blueprint at 10,000x scale and get hung up over .005" this way or that. When you bust out the calipers and compare to a bullet held in hand it becomes clear that. 005" of boolit length, driving band or lube groove in any dimension by itself won't make or break a design.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master DrCaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    981
    123dieselbenz

    that is something. Where did the metal go? Those lube grooves are a good 50% of their original length, and dont look particularly fatter. Now, I wonder whether there is any negative or positive to this shrinkage or merely academic study. Then, I wonder if the round-lube-groove designs show the same sort of compression/shrinkage.

    I could see some degree of compression adding to obturation of boolit in bore. If the compressive strength of the alloy exceeds the compressive pressure of the load, perhaps a "weak" outlet for metal displacement such as a thin-shanked lube groove is useful. Maybe stretching here...but it seems that a momentary shift in boolit shape as the lube groove compresses could allow the pressure to reach optimal levels before boolit discharge.

    Another way of saying this would be that the structural weakness of the lube groove shank allows the alloy strength to be the dominant force in determining boolit deformation during the initial portion of launch. As opposed to boolit construction (other than the intentially weak lube groove shank).

    I dont know, still probably splitting hairs over minutia but the pics posted show something interesting I had not noticed or considered possible before. Hard for that not to inspire some thinking outside the box.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
    btroj's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Nebraska's oldest city
    Posts
    13,519
    Where did the metal to? look at the nose shape of the fired vs unfixed bullets. The bullet changed shape entirely upon firing. Look at the nose, see how far up the nose the rifling engaged? Look at the unfired example, that portion of the nose is small enough in diameter that it shouldn't engaged the rifling at all, yet it did. All this because of bullet obturation. Make that bullet a lot harder and the rifling doesn't engage the bullet nose near as much at the same pressure.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check