my first cartridges

[Matt85]

ok be gentle on me, I did this bubba style. I recently bought a 1888 trapdoor rifle but have not been able to get the proper equipment to load some rounds for the dang thing. ive got all the proper equipment on back order but as it turns out I lack patients. so I was goofing around with a box of Hornady .457 round balls when it occurred to me that they often shot round ball cartridges outa these things. so... I decided to hand load 5 cartridges and as it turns out this is no small feat!

1. size the cases by hand: this means taking a case and pushing the sizing die in with your hands which by the way was easily the toughest part of the whole process cause the die would go in easy enough but getting it out took some real effort! I found that using a little lube on the sizing die made it come out a tiny bit easier but not by much. I also onley went about 1/8" deep with the sizing die as the balls didn't need to sit deep.
2. prime the cases by hand: this was actually easy, all I had to do was set a primer on the table and push the brass over it with the wide end of the sizing die. (I was careful to make sure the primer was fully seated)
3. weigh out powder: for this I simply used my Hornady pocket scale (70gr by weight). I then put the powder in the case with a small rubber funnel and tapped the side of the case till the powder would not settle any more. I also used a muzzle loading powder measure to get close to the 70 grains before using the scale to make the final touches.
4. wad: using a compression die I pushed a .060 cork wad down ontop of the powder compressing the powder a tiny bit (probably 1/16")
5. seating the ball: using a 50 cal short starter I pressed the round balls into the casing which further compress the powder around 1/16".

picture time!

this is literally ALL of the tools used to make these cartridges: (the brass die is the compression die and the steel die is the sizing die. these both came from wolfs western traders company and are specifically for the 45-70 gov)


here are the five cartridges next to a .457 ball:


I know its silly but I'm kind of proud of myself over these. If they hit paper at 50 yards and don't lead the living heck outa my barrel then I will consider them a success.

thanks for reading
-Matt

[NickSS]

I have done stuff like that but you really did not need to go through all of that for round balls. I shoot them in by back yard all the time loaded with 10 gr of FFFG in a fired case and I push the round ball down on top of the powder. They have low recoil good accuracy out to 25 yards and are fun to shoot at pop cans with.

[SharpsShooter]

Well, the only thing that might get you is lack of lubricant on the ball. All you have basically done is load ammunition by "hand".

If you swab the bore between shots, I imagine you will be okay. Don't kid yourself, round ball loads are usually very accurate over a short distance.

SS

[Matt85]

Nickss, I thought that but I ran into a problem. I have no once fire cases, I would have to size the entire case to get the ball all the way down there. it was tough enough to size a little over an 1/8" by hand. I don't think I did bad considering ive never loaded a cartridge before and I didn't have the proper tools to do it.

I will probably load more round ball cartridges in the future but with a lubed wad and a lighter powder charge. but that will be when I have better tools for the job!

-matt

[Matt85]

I guess there are trolls on every forum.

at any rate, I fired the 5 cartridges at the range and as I thought accuracy was non-existent. was a nice boom and plenty of smoke but only 1 of the 5 actually hit paper at 50 yards. still was fun and it will hold me over till my equipment shows up.

-matt

[semtav]

Oh Rick just likes that old picture of himself and looks for any chance to post it !!

[Battis]

There's a method of loading BP rifle rounds where the ball or bullet is not actually seated in the case - the ball/bullet rests on (or against) the loaded case. What's that method called, and does anyone here shoot that way?

[Matt85]

Battis, ive seen this done with schuetzen rifles but i don't know any more about it.

ive been thinking about why the cartridges didn't work and i suspect its a combination of too much powder and a ball that's too small.

well i was bored and motivated yet again. yes, this means more bubba hand loading. these were loaded by hand with 55-60 grains of KIK 2F using the Lyman 530 grain bullet. the reason for the grain variation is for the first couple of cartridges i couldn't figure out how to compress the powder well enough by hand. thankfully I did figure it out and settles on 60 grains.

the same hand tools above were used to make these:


you will notice the first bullet is seated deeper then the rest and that's due to the compression i mentioned earlier. you will also notice the last two bullets have shiny spots on them. i chambered these rounds and confirmed that Lyman bullet is indeed too large and the bullet nose is being marked by the rifling. they will work but will require extensive cleaning between shots and may cause extra leading.

-matt

[smoked turkey]

Matt: I am inspired by your determination. Personally your loads look good to me. I hope they perform well for you. I am also thinking of loading some black powder cartridges for my 45-70. I have not ever done that before. In my years of reloading I have loaded a few thousand smokeless cartridges, but none in black. I shoot muzzle loaders a lot but its not the same when we are talking breech loaders! The folks here consider what you are doing as old hat I am sure as they have literally loaded thousands of black powder cartridges. However from my prospective you are doing a good job with what you have. Keep up the good work and I am sure your determination will pay off.

[montana_charlie]

well i was bored and motivated yet again. yes, this means more bubba hand loading. these were loaded by hand with 55-60 grains of KIK 2F using the Lyman 530 grain bullet. the reason for the grain variation is for the first couple of cartridges i couldn't figure out how to compress the powder well enough by hand. thankfully I did figure it out and settles on 60 grains.

I use a press and die for powder compression, but that is to get the depth consistent. Otherwise, using fire-formed cases, I load everything about the same way you are loading yours.

As for the fouling in the throat ...
Run a patch impregnated with your bullet lube into and out of the barrel (from the muzzle) before your first shot. Lube the bore but not the chamber.
After that, a blow tube will likely make it possible to keep shoving fresh ones in ...

CM

[Hiwall55]

Try wiping the bore with olive oil then drying the chamber before loading. you will be able to get thru the day without any leading, Bill

[Matt85]

ill give that a shot thanks.

-matt

[Matt85]

ok went to the range today with 20 cartridges loaded as described. 15 of them used the Lyman 45 gov bullet in the above picture and 5 of them used postell bullets that came with the rifle when I bought it. both types of bullets performed ok at 50 yards with the Lyman gov bullet performing a little better. at 50 yards the gov bullets shot about 12" high and the postell bullets shot about 8" high. at 100 yards I had issues with both. I dunno what the postell did cause it didn't hit paper but the gov bullet shot VERY high (around 24"). my gov bullets also had issues being loaded as the nose way too large so the bore had to be swabbed every shot or a round would not chamber. the gov bullets also did a fair bit of leading in the barrel, many patches came out with small lead streaks (despite lube added to the barrel as suggested). I suspect the leading was due to both the nose being too wide and the poor quality alloy used to make the bullets.

I will try to cast some more using a better alloy but I suspect ill be putting this mold up for sale very soon.

-matt

[bigted]

that #457125 gubberment mould is on an old design and usually to get it to shoot you need to load it out to barely touch or just about .005 away from the rifling. that mould is a good one except for needing a full 70 grains to punch it hard enough to "bump" it into the rifling grooves.

take a .50 cal muzzleloader ball of pure lead and pound it thru the barrel after lubing the barrel with greese and measure the ball on the high spots...[groove]... then the bottom areas...[bore]... this will give you a good idea as to what your rifle wants for boolit diameter to begin with.

to load military shells find a book from "Wolf" called...["Loading Cartridges for the original 45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine"]...and it will give all direction to replicate the old military loads in your rifle. interestingly these cartridges have heavily compressed powder but seem to function well for the reliability that was the spec from the gubberment.

sounds like your having a great time tho and I applaud this. keep endeavoring and the payoff will be huge. just always remember these days as this is the stuff memories are made of. the best time I ever had was with a little tool ...[my first loading tool]...from 'Pacific' that was used with a hammer to size ,,, flair ,,, seat the primer ,,, seat the boolit. what fun...I would hammer these together at night and after work the next day I would shoot them and take note of how they reacted...together with a set of lee powder scoops...[that I still use today]...man what a hoot in the simplicity. wish all the knowledge and years would go away and be able to go back to those days...my goodness.

you have taken this ol man back to a very fun and desirable time ... with a pretty young wife [now an older version and still pretty by the way] and three hungry young'uns ... oh to be able to experience that all over again...your a lucky man...keep plodding my friend and always grin and enjoy the Yankee ingenuity that you seem to be blessed with.

these are surely the days !!! ...

[CanoeRoller]

This is very interesting

"... at 100 yards I had issues with both. I dunno what the postell did cause it didn't hit paper but the gov bullet shot VERY high (around 24")"

What size was the group were you getting? Did you make any adjustments to your sight, or did you keep everything adjusted for the same point blank spot of aim? You might want to see of your sights are a bit loose. I have seen trapdoors with some rather loose sights.

I have never been able to get very decent groups at less than 100 yards, as the long boolits from 45-70's and such have not fully stabilized at close range.

Did you measure each powder load and each boolit before loading? You will notice a change in the point of impact for about 1 grain change in BP, and if your boolits are not close matches by weight ( plus or minus no more than 1 grain, and better still within 1/2 grain, you will have more variation on your group. This amount of parallax is surprising to me. You should see your shots noticeably dropping at that range. This could be due to your leading issue, as each successive shot was being squeezed through a tighter barrel, but that is just a guess.


." ..my gov bullets also had issues being loaded as the nose way too large so the bore had to be swabbed every shot or a round would not chamber."


Did you use a blow tube or wipe the barrel between each round? The only time I have had this issue was my first few BP rounds, once I learned that I had to slobber a bit into my blow tube and give a few good puffs down the barrel, this problem went away. How far are your bullets from engaging the rifling? Are they set to be a couple thousandths short of engaging or a bit farther back?

"the gov bullets also did a fair bit of leading in the barrel, many patches came out with small lead streaks (despite lube added to the barrel as suggested).

What sort of Lube did you use on the slugs? How did you apply it? How hard is your alloy, it is straight wheel weights, or WW with lead thrown in, or is there a fair amount of random scrap?


"I suspect the leading was due to both the nose being too wide and the poor quality alloy used to make the bullets."

It may be that the nose of your round is too wide, or that it is too wide with the alloy your are using, more lead and less tin will narrow your round a bit. You might also want to check the bore very carefully to see if there are any rough spots you did not see before. This rifle has had more than 100 years to develop a spot of rust or two. You might also have an issue if the grease grooves are a bit undersized for your barrel, as the slug can rattle around a bit as it heads down the barrel, scraping off bits of lead in the process.

[Matt85]

the alloy used was about 7-3 WW and pure lead. the reason the bullets don't wanna chamber is the nose comes out to .451-.452 on these bullets and my lands are pretty much right at .450. my groups at 50 yards in the beginning were pretty good about 2" with the first couple of shots. at 100 yards groups were non-existent and I was just happy to hit the target. to hit the target at 100 yards I had to pretty much aim 12" below the bottom of the paper so grouping was near impossible. im using SPG lube on all my bullets and to add to the lubrication I also swabbed the barrel with ballistol between shots. the ballistol was nice cause the leading didn't seem to stick as well so it was easy to get out.

-matt

[CanoeRoller]

ok, if you used SPG, it was not the lube.

How did you apply the lube?

You might want to change your alloy to 50-50 ww to lead mix, your slugs will be a bit narrower, and a bit softer. Were your casts of equal weight? There can be a surprising amount of variation from one slug's weight to the next. You may also want to check and see if your boolits are significantly out of round.

I would recommend making, buying or have made for you, a blow tube and trying that instead of swabbing the barrel. That might change things a bit. I find that my accuracy is much better with blow tubes than with constant cleaning.

Check the muzzle of your trapdoor, and see if the barrel is out of round. There has been lots of chances for the barrel to be misshapen, if it is the original barrel.

My best guess for the leading issue is that your boolit is a bad fit for your barrel. If you have not done so, slug it and measure what you push out the far end. If your bore is an odd one, you will pretty much need to look for a custom mold or a near custom mold.

[Matt85]

I don't think its the gun, the groups started out great and just got worse as the leading built up. I will try casting some bullets out of a softer alloy (add more pure lead) but I still suspect the nose will be too wide. according to the various books ive read about bullets for the trapdoor rifle the nose should be no wider then .447".

-matt

[bigted]

slug yer barrel!!! you will just continue throwing stuff at it until you finally get lucky... or ...maybe just go ahead and slug the thing so as to take all the mystery outta it! then you will be working with a known rather then a think.

slugging the barrel is rather painless and the payoff is huge.