Safety of hubel Sabot in .875 muzzle thickness barrel?

[cpileri]

No worries!
I mean, I am glad you are worrying about me, but don't think I am going to try any funky loads without confirmation of pressure testing. I'm not guessing with a possible grenade near my face.

Thanks Turbo and Hubel for the admonition, not that I can find any H110 or AA1680 or any other powders anyway. I will keep an eye out for some 4759, VV110,RE17, and surplus 7383; and a P14-17 Enfield Lower barrel band.

Ed, PM coming!
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[cpileri]

And Ajay! Didnt mean to forget you! THANKS for caring abt my safety.

No, the crankiest loads I have pressure data for are:
that 1000+gr cast slug w IMR-4227, charge from 48-54gr, running 950-1050fps at 8300-10,300psi.
and

I am sure some modern reloading manuals have whopper 2-oz load data that can be extrapolated to slug data, but my 880gr slug data uses longshot (28.5gr) for subsonic and ~8300psi, and 4759 at 63-65gr for 1500+fps at 15-17000psi.

Thats as heavy as i am willing to go at this time, since the data is verified.


Of course I have the hull and wad data to go with these.

C-

[cpileri]

For example, the 3.5" data on the online Hodgdon center lists 2.25oz loads:
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Fed. 209A Fed. 12S3 32 13,700 PSI 1150fps
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Fed. 209A Rem. RXP 31 13,200 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Fed. 209A WAA12 31 13,700 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Rem. 209P Fed. 12S3 33 12,900 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Rem. 209P Rem. RXP 33 12,600 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Rem. 209P WAA12 33 13,400 PSI 1150

and 3", 2-oz loads from Alliant's online data:
12 Gauge
•3-in. Federal High Power Plastic with 7/16 Fiber Base Wad

(ounces) Velocity (fps) Primer Powder Wad Grains Approx. psi
2 1,150 Fed 209A Blue Dot SP 12 33 11,400

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Running pretty reasonale pressures considering the NEF can take 20Kpsi.

Also, later tonight i will be rummaging thru Graeme Wright's book for Paradox and 12-bore loads since most of them are right around 20Kpsi using 750-ish-gr slugs!
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[cpileri]

OK, so the paradox loads are not too exciting. Similar (or identical) to what I've posted before.

But here's somethin interesting: it has to do with bigger case=lower pressure for a given powder charge and weight projectile. A 900gr 600 Nitro Express load is listed. The NE projo is .62 and case has much less capacity than a 12ga 3" or 3.5". Would the powder charge under a .729 slug in a 12ga Big Shot (like we're discussing) be worthwhile to explore. I know that ignition reliablility matters alot, and one of the powders they use in the 600NE is 4381 which is unreliable at less than 100% fill in big cases. But they did list other powders, including Holy Black. Wondering if I should post the info just for grins...

And the search for load data continues!

C-

[cpileri]

Do you all know of any barrel bands that will fir the forearm and the heavy barrel without having to mod the wood much or preferably not at all?
I'd like to maintain as much structural integrity as possible.
Also, I'm thinking of using thos elittle tungsten pinewood derby weights to weight the forearm. i only got one hole in the stock so i figure i can use the more-dense tungsten and get more weight out front; which means i'll need a strong barrel band.
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[hubel458]

You should do extra holes in butt and add most weight there.
With bull barrel more is needed in back and more weight there gives better
balance, and proper balance is almost.as important to handle recoil as weight.
3 things needed with good loadsm weight, balance and thick pads,Ed

[cpileri]

Will try. I just don't want my stock to split.
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[hubel458]

We've never split nef stock. They are all tough hardwood or plastic.
Got 10ga SB2 here with original wood stock weighted in the butt to 13 lbs.
Gun has the 32" factory heavy bull barrel and shoots 690gr on 10ga VP100 wad
over 2200 and 900 gr fullbore 1900 plus.Never even works gets loose.Ed

[cpileri]

I’m sifting through the big thread mining out all the NEF data of course. Please correct any mistakes I make!
I really should get all this into a notebook somewhere, neat in one place for easy reference(*).

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load levels and velocities as 4759.
NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug in drillpress.
82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps, with 730gr,
78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.

More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in 3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.

3.5" plastic cases in NEF, small primers. My chamber is lengthened for our
long brass case, so they work fine..... With 600 gr slug, 105 gr of IMR 4227, got 2100.

BPI sabot in 3.5" plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps, BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter. With a .512" slug it measures . 727"

double projectile load that would make a
good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC
case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one
ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?7916-12GA-FH-Slug-Tester&p=483903&viewfull=1#post483903


(*) You know what I am thinking: this situation is analogous to the 45-70 which has ‘levels’ of pressures: trapdoor <18kpsi, modern, Marlin 1895 level at 35kpsi, Ruger No1, and Siamese Mauser at 50lpsi plus. To the point where some advocate renaming the heavy loads at 457 Magnum or something.
Similarly, we have the 12ga and the 12ga FH levels.
So for the 12ga we have: SAAMI spec at 11.5kpsi,(14kpsi for 3.5”),
NEF Ultra Spec at 25kpsi, (Encore prohunter 12ga and it will do 90% of the NEF)
Savage 210 w heavy barrel at 35kpsi,
Winchester 87 w heavy barrel, and finally
the Borchardt falling block/Zoli Sportster 100Kpsi-no-that’s-not-a-misprint-don’t worry-you-wont-ever-load-it-that-heavy-level of power.

[cpileri]

Thanks, Mr. Hubel!
Cuz i was looking at one of these:


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/791343/choate-monte-carlo-buttstock-h-and-r-nef-single-shot-shotguns-rifles-muzzleloaders-synthetic-black
Is it hollow? Will it fit a H&R Ultra Slug Hunter? If it s hollow, you could fill it up w a lot of ballast for added weight!
C-

[cpileri]

Have to include a couple ones that piqued my interest even though I lack the powder or some other component:
Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter (modern
steel with .93" muzzle diameter ) will handle these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic 3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads.
Can't get no more under the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers.
With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got over 1900.
With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600.
This is 24" barrel, so longer barrels will get more.
In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup expansion.
The 870gr load is max peak pressure of 16,000 psi.

"Un-Modified Modern Factory 3" Chamber - Bull Barrel Only
For Lymans (edit: 525gr) use 92gr of 4759 or 95 gr 4227.
For 600gr Dixie use 90gr of 4759 or 92gr of 4227.
For 730 gr Dixie or equivalent use 85gr 4759 or 87gr of 4227.
For 870 gr Full bore slugs use 80 gr 4759 or 82 gr of 4227.

Following tested in NEF-max pressure 25k psi.
Using 3.5" MRC brass, 715gr jkt and 200gr RE17, got 2500.
420 gr in BPI sabot and 220 gr Re17, got 2900 fps.
And we get real good velocities in plastic with half the
basecup expansion of factory mag loads.So that solves
problem-IE, being able to use regular firing mechanisms and
shotgun primers, with large enough powder charges to
get hairy velocities at mag shotgun pressures in plastic
and higher in brass cases with heavy barrels.A good powder
for plastic and brass loads.
R-17 powder loads are pretty much roll crimp only. Two reasons for this, first roll crimping allows more space in-side the hull for powder which is desperately needed for R-17 loads and secondly that powder needs good tight start pressure to get the fire started.




More w powders I don’t have (and still everyone is out of 4759!) but 1000gr- Man, don’t you just want to TRY it at least once!?!?!
Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads.
Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer, with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.
These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.
1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs, with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad.
715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.
This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder

Interest in the 12ga H&R/NEF seems to have petered out by post 300 in the Big thread. I’ll keep looking, esp since…well, I can use the data..but I imagine others can use it too since the USH is off-the-rack available.

[cpileri]

Well, I just re-read the WHOLE 12ga FH Slug tester thread. Picked out a few more load details specific to the NEF-strength guns.
For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55.
I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.(440gr Minie ball in Hubel Sabot)
Or…
For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

With no cards under slugs,
But with good powder seals and with Alliant Steel good 1/4" minimum cushion wads.

And of course:
With Steel in 3.5" (RMC) brass case I go to 65gr with 440gr in sabot.
And Use x12x seal and white felt wads to fill space. Nitro wads work.

I think i am going to do what I said, make a nice table/chart w all the load data I mined on it for easy reference.
C-

[cpileri]

And here they are, for easier reading.

12ga FH loads (up to 25kpsi, in heavy barrels only- specifically Ultra Slug Hunter, unless otherwise noted)

Plastic 2.75” case
40-50gr A.Steel, Fio616 or magnum primer, 440gr slug in Hubel Sabot
(in any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading, pump, or break action gun with same muzzle of modern steel with MINIMUM .93" muzzle diameter): up to 115gr Re-17, X12X, felt wads, [437gr BPI sabot slug or Brenneke KO @ 1900+fps// 520gr Lyman Shotcup slug @ 1850fps// 600gr hard Dixie slug @1800fps// 870gr hardcast @1600fps] , all loads max pressure 16Kpsi

Plastic case 3”
Rem hi brass, IMR 4759: 90gr, 600gr Dixie slug, roll crimp, 1800+fps, 14575psi
80gr IMR 4759, X12X, 1/8” felt wad, Hubel Sabot w/slug
Fed High Pwr 7/16 Fiber Base: 2oz (880gr) Fed 209A 33grBlueDot SP 12 1150fps 11,400psi
95gr IMR 4227 (or 92gr 4759), 209 primer, 525gr Lyman shotcup slug
92gr IMR 4227 (or 90gr 4759), 209 primer, 600gr Dixie slug,
82gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 730gr fullbore slug, roll crimp, 1650fps
78gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 800gr fullbore slug, roll crimp, 1600fps
74-75gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 870gr fullbore slug, roll crimp, 1500fps
45-55gr A.Steel, X12X, felt, Fio616 or magnum primer, 440gr slug in Hubel Sabot

Plastic case 3.5”
Up to 100gr IMR 4759, X12X, 1/4” felt wad, Hubel Sabot
105gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 600gr Dixie slug, 2100fps
120gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 437gr BPI sabot slug, 2400fps
990gr lead shot. 32gr Longshot Fed. 209A Fed. 12S3 13,700PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 32gr Longshot Fed. 209A Rem. RXP 13,200PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 32gr Longshot Fed. 209A WAA12 13,700PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 33gr Longshot Rem. 209P Fed. 12S3 12,900PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 33gr Longshot Rem. 209P Rem. RXP 12,600PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 33gr Longshot Rem. 209P WAA12 13,400PSI 1150fps

Magtec 2.5” brass
(none specifically listed, but safe ‘lesser’-level loads that fit from can be used)

RMC 3” brass
AA 1680: 125gr, 600gr hard Dixie Slug, .135card, 2x1/2” lubed felt wads1850fps
Re-7: 132gr, 600gr Dixie slug, .135card, 1x1/2”+1x1/4” lubed felt wad,1850fps
45-55gr A.Steel, X12X, felt, Fio616 or magnum primer, 440gr slug in Hubel Sabot
(also For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel
For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel

Modified 50bmg brass 3.07”
RL-25: 215gr, 600gr hard Dixie slug, 1700fps

RMC 3.5” brass
140gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 437gr BPI sabot slug, 2600fps
85gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, X12X, 2 (two) x 1oz Brenneke KO slugs stacked, 1600fps
200gr Re-17, 715gr Jacketed fullbore slug,roll crimp, 2500fps
220gr Re-17, 420gr in BPI sabot, roll crimp, 2900fps
50-65gr A.Steel, X12X, felt, Fio616 or magnum primer, 440gr slug in Hubel Sabot
2(two)x.570-577 round balls in Hubel sabot, 35-45gr A.Steel

Top RE17 loads in NEF- Don't go below 100gr of Re-17 in 12ga cases!
3.5" RMC brass--385Gr JKT --220gr Re17
3.5" RMC brass--Hubel Sabot with 400gr --- 220ge RE17
3.5" RMC brass--715 gr JKT and 720 gr hard lead-- 200gr RE17
3.5" RMC brass--870gr hard lead- 180gr RE17
3.5" RMC brass--1040gr hard lead - 170gr Re17


Modified 50bmg brass 3.9”- not for NEF!!!!
(none specifically listed for NEF as chamber reamed to 3.5” max)
1000gr jacketed, 15gr Blue Dot+230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs, with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad.
715gr jkt, 15gr Blue Dot+270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
600gr Dixie, 15gr Blue Dot+250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
385gr jkt AL core, 15gr Blue Dot+250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs

[cpileri]

OK, grafs has some 4759- but only in 8Lb lots. Anyone in Central texas want to split an order? I dont really want 8 lbs- I'd need to order the rest of the few thousand Hubel Sabots to load all that!
Seriously, anyone want to go in?
C-

[cpileri]

Almost forgot one: 3.5"RMC brass, 2(two)x.570-577 round balls in Hubel sabot, 35-45gr A.Steel

[cpileri]

Dear Sir Turbo1889,
Can you elaborate a bit more on the Re-17 loads you mentioned?

Also, with the big bull barrel that gun is equipped with you can run even slower burning powder loads - namely Reloader-17 loads where your minimum start charge is 100 grains with all but the heaviest slugs and depending on slug weight you top out at about 135 grains. (Get the info from Hubels 12GAFH thread).

Are you saying that given the NEF USH and a 3.5" chamber, using 100gr-135gr of Re-17, I can load... what/...ANY slug weight? or the huge range mentioned in the Big thread: i.e. Mr. Hubel lists slugs from 375gr-to-1000gr jacketed and 1043gr hardcast.

And why is 100gr the minimum? i am not familiar w this powder, and i know some are not safe w reduced loads. Please elaborate.

it wouldbe very nice to have a simple formula to use for load development. Something I didnt think was exactly possible.

C-

[hubel458]

Re17 needs minimum amount in a large diameter cases like
12ga just like 4759 and Alliant Steel.

With 3.5" cases you have more flexibility as you can use thicker
felt wads to moderate peak pressures.
With real heavy slugs you'd
use less, down like 100-110gr, real light 375Gr slug all you could get in
with seal and 1/2" wad....................
but in 12ga the best combo for good trajectory and good high
energy on the target are lighter bullets
in sabots and medium full bore slugs like 600 to 750 gr.

Only thing we add to figures now, are we found that 4227 does not
ignite good when the shell has been cooled long enough so
that powder get real cold. So I don't use it.Ed

[cpileri]

Thanks!
Re-17 from 375-1000gr; that's versatility!
So if you were to pick one powder (*) for the 3.5' NEF USH, using 209 primers, RMC brass; would you pick 4759 or re-17?
Or something else?
(Basically, i am going to grab whichever becomes available, but just for my getting started out before buying it in case quantities...)
C-
(*) for heavy loads, that is. Other powders for lower psi loads.

[hubel458]

Re17 for the heavier stuff, and
4759 for real light stuff like less than 400gr.
You can use Re17 for super light AL cored bullet
but could get it faster with 4759 I think.ED

[cpileri]

You are indeed costing me money, Sir!
(in the best way, of course)
C-