Safety of hubel Sabot in .875 muzzle thickness barrel?

[cpileri]

And the 2 recovered Hubel sabots. They opened nicely.


Hope you all found this interesting!
C-

[cpileri]

Also, each paper target (except the first big hunk of cardboard and the buckshot pattern target) is abt 12"x12", if that helps anyone estimate group sizes.
C-

[hubel458]

In smooth barrel I got 3" group at about 25yds. Mine was a heavy barrel
like NEF Ultra,and tight bore, no choke. Fired faster speed
with 440gr and sabots open up a little more. Ed

[cpileri]

Also noticed something interesting: the imprint of the Hubel sabot is clearly present on the .125 nitro card that was under it:

[cpileri]

See also that there is no gas cutting on he sides of the card. the imprint of the x12x on the underside is also present. makes me thin I didnt load with enough wad pressure and the x12x slammed up into the card, which slammed up into the sabot leaving the imprint. Could that be it? or is this normal for the card wads?

[cpileri]

No apparent gas blow by

[OnHoPr]

I'm not sure but maybe you could have reworded the OP a little differently. I like the way those sabots are fairing so far with the pedals and base still in good condition after firing. Not to bad Ed. Seems like with a number of boolits and other components, the individual should be able to come up with an accurate load.

[turbo1889]

See also that there is no gas cutting on he sides of the card. the imprint of the x12x on the underside is also present. makes me thin I didnt load with enough wad pressure and the x12x slammed up into the card, which slammed up into the sabot leaving the imprint. Could that be it? or is this normal for the card wads?

In tests I've conducted in a hydro-ram press I've confirmed that "hard" nitro cards squish down to nearly half their thickness when subjected to the equivalent of 10,000 PSI/in^2. They do have some "give" to them and do function as a crush section in the loads wad column. They just don't give nearly as much as dedicated cushion wads made from softer materials such as felt/cork/fiber/etc . . . A little bit of cushion in a slug load is good to help prevent any aggressive pressure spikes but too much can be detrimental to accuracy. Just using nitro cards between the over powder gas seal (if a separate plastic gas seal is used) and the bottom of the slug or sabot has given me good results providing enough cushion to keep things safe with most slower burning powders and provide decent accuracy without a bunch of fuss.

Long story short, any wad pressure you provide is negligable compared to the pressure generated by the burning powder charge when the shell is fired. The nitro cards are going to squish a little in the load when it is fired regardless. Wad pressure is all about getting consistent stable burns by controlling the initial conditions under which the powder is ignited and begins its burn.

[hubel458]

That imprint of the X12X on the card is normal as turbo has stated.
A guy could just use card with no plastic seal like old days, but you will have
some blowby and lose speed as well as have powder getting by card, when case is handled.Now the bigger kernels
of the Steel and 4759 powder(both similiar) don't
leak by as easy.

I solve a lot of these problems by using the MEC Collet Super Sizer even on
new cases to keep sides in to stay as tight as possible on the seal.
And REM STS cases are heavier sides and work better also.
The sealing on these sabot loads with more of a slower powders, means
the seals are higher up in the case so heaver tighter sides help...Ed

[hubel458]

That imprint in the middle of card from sabot is the tip that
is left as it comes from mold. The mfg setup is a one hole direct injection
mold which makes best way to regulate plastic density and strength.
Plus that one hole mold is all we could afford to do.That tip can
be cut of with sharp knife to make little more room where using
hard card under the sabot. I use white felt wads which the tip
sets down into. I have cards to spare if guys can pay a little.Ed

[cpileri]

How much do you want for them? All 12ga? And approx how many?

[cpileri]

Turbo! Thanks thats exactly the info i was looking for! I guess ill keep developing the load and see if i can come up w something a smoothebore shooter can use.

And InHoPr, yes this thread did kind of morph. But i hope the info is useful to others.
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[hubel458]

They are all 12ga about 4000 in the big box. I'll keep some.
I'd sell them by the 1000 for 10 bucks plus shipping
total $17 shipped in postal box.

Or 3000 for $45 including shipping.Ed

[cpileri]

so just asking: if i test out a bunch of new slug loads, using this gun; should I post it here or start a new threaad?
this thread has become more about the loads and less about the gun, I think.
Just taking a quick poll.
C-

[hubel458]

Title of thread should be are any fast sabot loads safe in thin barrels.
Maybe change the title.

OBJECT OF SABOTS ARE FASTER LOADS, MORE POWER,
AND THAT MEANS MORE DOWN THE BARREL PRESSURES.

Been thinking since other poster bulged barrel on older thin barrel
gun, in another thread with his slug design. It is great slug
design, nothing wrong with iy. BUT, Older guns have low alloy,
thin barrels and I can't reccomend sabots or any hot slug loads in them.
Only low alloy barrels to use are those over an inch at the muzzle for 12ga..
Like the Nef Ultra at 1.070", And high alloy barrels I use for heavy loads
are .920" at the muzzle.and bigger.Like Savage 210.

For the guy who bulged, the gun involved has a real strong action, but
thin barrel. Not the right combo to use for heavy loads.
Nef Ultras or alloy slug barrels for other guns. pump, etc, for
these loads are cheap insurance.

And don't use less than 40gr of steel for these sabot loads with 500gr
slugs and heavier slugs and any less than 44gr with lighter slugs in sabot. .Ed

[cpileri]

Thanks, Ed. Highest I went w your sabots was 440gr slug and 38gr steel w Fio 616 primer. Plan to do higher up to 44gr Steel if I ever find any magnum primers for sale again. I check once in awhile, so far no luck from usual sources.
I can keep posting here as long as I include a Hubel Sabot load. That way the title wont be so off.C-

P.s. in the market for a Savage 210! That and a Baik double 45-70... And a seaway Bangstick... So many guns so little time and money... Anyway: Happy 4th!!!

[hubel458]

Maybe find a NEF Ultra. less than half the cost of savage so you
can get loads going and not have to worry about barrels.
Operating with hugely reduced loads with sabots , for which they are
not made for, may give them a bad name.

For the 30 or so others who monkeyed with the junk sabots over
the years and found them inaccurate and wanting
please see if you all will get on board help test these out.
Most of you have right guns and experience.
IE, we need those who used the good ones made back east,
on a small scale, to see if ours is comparable or close to that..Ed

[cpileri]

More info: while celebrating the 4th by excercising one of our remaining freedoms ( at the range w 3 youngsters), I found another Hubel sabot from my previous test. It was splayed open perfectly. So that means that at least 2 powder charges developed enough velocity to open from a .737 smoothebore. Recall I loaded two shells at 38 gr of Alliant Steel and one each from 35-37gr. So even if both 38's opened, one other did also.
I found all three sabots btw 25 and 35 yards from the firing line. Hope that helps.
C-

[hubel458]

I found that they open great also. As I said before about comparing to sabots
with smaller diameter bullets in them, maybe you can have too
much plastic, as they may not open as easily and squarely as ours
which is similiar to accutip. The pictures we posted of them opening
in 12ga FH thread is what showed what was needed.Ed

[cpileri]

Hey All,
Can i just say how pleased i am w the treatment I've gotten over here: THANKS!

I mean, everyone knows i am the new guy, and I am taking ideas from guys whose interests align w mine but are further along the path towards actualizing it (700NE from a 12ga!Am i right!?!!?). but still, every question i've asked has gotten a nice informative, even friendly response.

Maybe i'm just comparing, which isnt entirely fair, to the roasting I got for asking an honest if innane question on another part of this forum;but I still think you all deserve a thanks for the respect you show.

C-