Safety of hubel Sabot in .875 muzzle thickness barrel?

[cpileri]

Well, i finished boring out the barrel referenced here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?191879-What-should-I-do-Custom-cast-725-slug-or-725-quot-E-quot-reamer-to-the-bore
and it is now overbored at .737; a .735 round ball falls through by gravity alone.

The muzzle thickness is .875

But mr. Hubels sabot w 440-460gr minie balls are a tight fit (more than 6-10lbs pressure; tight!), so i am thinking of trying them.

Since the recommended powder charge of 40-45gr-ish of Steel is for .92 muzzles, where would you all recommend I start and stop load development so as not to risk splitting the barrel. or perhaps a switch to a faster powder, keeping the pressure near the breech where its thicker?

Thanks!
C-

[jmort]

If you PM him I bet he would give you some load info for his sabots. I'm probably going with around 30 - 35 grains of Steel and two .575 290 grain balls.

[cpileri]

Oh. Sure. Remind me about the PM feature.

Duh.

Need more coffee!

C-

[hubel458]

I'd start with 35gr steel go to 40gr. Or use lesser amounts of
a faster powder. You can find starting loads for 1 oz payloads
in manuals and in the info that Ajay has posted here.

Discarding sabots due to how they were designed mainly for rifled and they
are supposed to fit tight, need more than 6-10 lbs of push through a barrel
for accuracy and to stay square against seal and wads so that
seal and wads have good sealing. That is why we made it similiar size
and style like the accutip, which fits real tight like that, and is very accurate.
A tight fit like rifle bullets have in arifled bore.

But in the long run to get the max potential power and accuracy we got to use
heavier rifled barrels.Ed

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Cpileri, don't forget the Donut, that goes along with the coffee brother!

Here we used 12 ga. Federal hulls with Fed.209A magnum primer required for A. Steel powder and then topped it with X12X OP wad followed by .170" thick Darker nitro card and then Ed's Sabot with .58 cal bullet of 460 gr and we used 60 to 70 lbs wad pressure to seat the sabot all the way home!


Please be sure to post pictures from the range.
Have fun while you are at it!

"No man is a failure who is enjoying life at the range."- Blazing Sabots

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

ooooooo, i forgot abt the Magnum primer requirement! Thanks! (if i can find any nowadays). WIll it be OK w non-magnum primers?

And I sure will post pics. I'll be trying them in a smoothbore, so it may be of interest to others.

C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Sorry brother Cpileri, that powder needs a Magnum primer to ignite!
You could also try CCI 209M Magnum primer instead!
If you can't find then go ahead use at least Fiocchi 616 primer, it will still work for now, take my word for it!

As it is, that sabot will very likely tag along for a free ride piggy back and might not release the bullet, that's why I asked you to load it with 38 gr charge hoping the air peeling effect will do the job releasing the bullet!

Polish your forcing cones for a smoother launch and transfer:



Say your prayer's and try them at your own risk, tho!

Lets make a deal, I'll prey for you, you prey for me as I'll be at the range in the next few days.
Wish me luck so I can help my family of Slug Shooter's.

"No man is a failure who is enjoying life at the range."- Blazing Sabots

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

I do have some 616's, will check the meager supplies for magnums.
Any other powders/charges that might work, ones that dont require magnum primers?
C-

p.s. I'm happy to pray for you. Anytime.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Thanks, Cpileri, we all need good wisher's to succeed in life!

Right now don't worry just use Fiocchi 616 till you get some Fed 209A primer's.
LongShot, 4756, WSF, Blue Dot and A.Steel.

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

Yeah, when I first read "say your prayers"; i thought "Goodness sakes, what am I getting into!?!?"- i.e took it as a warning. Then i saw it wasnt ( thankfully!)
C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

We are watching, brother and if we can help, will stop you and correct you.

I can't wait to see your results as my dear friend JmorTimer too is watching how you do,
he too has a smooth bore and wants to try them just like you.

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

OK, so i found some 3" Fiocchi primed hulls, and loaded only 5 shells: one of each w 35gr, 36gr and 37gr; and 2 of 38gr A. Steel; then a x12x gas seal, a 1/4" hard (dark) nitro card, the Hubel Sabot/minie combo, and a clear overshot disk to give the roll crimp a place to rest; and of course a roll crimp.

I have a few loads to test now, so will head out soon and report back.

C-

[hubel458]

You don't need overshot disc or card to roll crimp these,
The roll crimp goes right down over the edge of the top
of the sabot, that makes for tightest hold on the wad and sabot
column and gives best and most uniform ignition.Ed

[cpileri]

Do you think the overshot disc is dangerous? or just unnecessary? Should i uncrimp them and re-roll w/o the disc?
C-

[OnHoPr]

That is up to you. As Hubel stated it is not necessary. They IMO aren't dangerous. If they are going to be pocket shells then maybe the the over shot disc can help with ID or keep lint, bark, pocket debris of sorts out of the boolit/sabot unit possibly effecting accuracy or debris getting into the magazine. Test with and without to see if there are any accuracy differences.

[hubel458]

Not dangerous at all- may affect accuracy.

How old is your gun, what brand and type. It may be newer alloy
barrel and could go to say 43-45gr of steel. Heavy barrels with
440 gr slug can do 55GR steel. Ed

[cpileri]

Gun is new, or a couple years old but in fired very little: a Rossi single shot 12ga (kind of a H&R knock off), locks up tight and actually shoots pretty good- or did before bore reaming. Now has been bored out to .737 as mentioned to "fix" some internal constrictions and burrs.
I would have liked it at .729, but my reamer cut wide even with the bushings. So now its overbored. Muzzle diameter is .875.
Not sure what alloy Rossi (Brazil) uses.
C-

[hubel458]

That Rossi is new enough it could handle 42gr steel in that weight of barrel.
Rossi also makes a rifled barrel12ga with little heavier barrel. You may not get
good accuracy with that large of overbore. Lets us know how it goes.Ed

[cpileri]

Many thnaks everyone!
So here's what i am getting so far;
Recommendation to use heaviest safe powder charge (up to 42gr) to ensure best chance that the sabot releases, right?
Overbore issues: might not be accurate. Sure.
I am looking for .737 slugs (no luck)- and .735 rbs fall through by gravity.
I did see in mr Vdomemorie's post that a .678 rb in a Hornady versalite wad is a good for overbores. Midway sells an off brand of that wad (not brand name hornady), would that be equivalent?
Maybe the Paradox 12ga ctg that lewis drake sells (a .735 fosbury slug) would work?
I suppose I could look around for a custom mold, or a bump-up die; but dont want to spend extra $$ at this time.
Any ideas appreciated!
C-

[cpileri]

more spec on the Paradox cartridge:

Bullet weight: 12-bore = 740 grains / 48 gram
Bullet diameter: .735" (Fosbery Pattern, solid lead)
Muzzle velocity: *1050 ft./sec. / 320 m/sec.
Muzzle energy: *1840 ft./lbs. / 2500 joules
Service pressure: 3 ¼ tons " / 850 bar

Converting bar to other pressures 850 bar= 12330 psi

Modern 12ga shotgun= 11500 psi, or 14000 for 3.5" magnum loads.

Sound safe?
C-