Smoothbore Accuracy?

[longbow]

What sort of accuracy can be expected from smoothbore muzzleloaders and at what range?

I have read of and been told of some pretty impressive accuracy using sized close fitting balls and also patched round balls but have no first hand experience.

Also, let's talk bore size and velocity. Small bore balls can be driven to pretty impressive velocities and may remain supersonic all the way to the target where large bore... say .62 cal and up are probably going to be supersonic part way or subsonic all the way depending on whether shot from smooth rifle or musket.

My thinking is that balls shot from smoothbore will pick up random spins from air drag then start to veer off course. There is likely to be more turbulence if the ball goes transonic during its flight so more randomly induced spin.

So, what can you guys tell me? Are consistent 6" or less groups doable at 100 yards?

Longbow

[fouronesix]

Well, I can tell you straight away that are two camps of shooters with smoothbore stories. Those who claim so-so results and those who claim great accuracy. Take your pick. Whether or not it's a matter of difference in the definitions of accuracy or the ones claiming great accuracy also "have a secret"... I don't know. My results comparing rifled to smoothbore, show a huge difference in accuracy potential and typical results.

[varsity07840]

Well, I can tell you straight away that are two camps of shooters with smoothbore stories. Those who claim so-so results and those who claim great accuracy. Take your pick. Whether or not it's a matter of difference in the definitions of accuracy or the ones claiming great accuracy also "have a secret"... I don't know. My results comparing rifled to smoothbore, show a huge difference in accuracy potential and typical results.

I'm in the so-so camp. I shoot an original 1816 flint. The barrel was relined by Bob Hoyt who knows what he's doing. That being said, for hunting purposes it's a max 50 yard gun with patched balls. Closer is better.

Duane

[waksupi]

All depends on how much you are willing to practice. Get together with Colby some time, he can show you.

[mainiac]

I can only speak for the one smoothbore i have ever owned,and this is the only one i ever shot as well. But with this 28 gauge/.54, i get consistant 2 inch groups @ 50 yards.Think she will be a 1.5 inch grouper,when i get done with her.Havent tried any distance longer then 50 yards,,,yet.
I was/am surprised how accurate the rifle is.

[longbow]

Well my use isn't for BP musket, it is for smoothbore cartridge shotgun.

I figure you guys are the subject matter experts and the best accuracy you can get is the goal I would try for. A smoothbore muzzleloader has an advantage over a breech loading shotgun in that there is no ball to hull fit issue, no jump to forcing cone and no forcing cone.

Having said that. I still want a Northwest trade musket in .62 cal and one day will get one I hope. But for now my use of round ball in smoothbore is for breech loading shotgun.

Waksupi: I haven't seen Colby in quite a while. I think he has more or less given up going to archery shoots and while I am still primarily an archer with traditional wood bows, I am not making many shoots myself lately. I really wanted to go the North American Longbow Safari this year but I got laid off at work so am just working casual now and won't be able to get time off.

Not sure if I still have his e-mail but I don't think so.

Say hi to him for me if you see him at a BP shoot.

Longbow

[waksupi]

I may see him this next weekend at our spring shoot. I saw him and Lil a couple weeks ago, and they got me intoxicated, as usual.

I don't think you are going to get a usable comparison between muzzle loaders and cartridge firearms.

[longbow]

You may well be right as the guns are very different. I am just curious as to actual smoothbore accuracy you guys get. I suspect it will be better than I can expect from a cartridge shotgun but at least an indication of potential accuracy from a well launched round ball... and a patched round ball from smoothbore musket is probably as well launched as one can get.

I have sat around the fire a few evenings with Colby ~ I know all about intoxication. He and Lil are good people.

Longbow

[Maven]

longbow, Smoothbores can be a challenge. Accuracy is better, of course, if there's a rear sight (a smooth rifle, technically), but as Ric said, you still have to practice. Although less critical in a smoothie than a rifle, patch thickness is still important* as is ball diameter (relative to your bbl.) and powder charge. The target below was fired from my Green River Forge trade gun (no rear sight) from a semi-rested position @ 25 yds. I've since had a Jim Chambers "White Lightnin'" vent liner installed, which should stop the hang fires I was experiencing. For the record, the RB was .597" cast from a Jeff Tanner mold using 80grs. Diamondback FFg. The patch was .014" red striped pillow ticking**, and the lube was 1 Ballistol : 6 water.

The 2" square diamond shaped target was also fired @ 25 yds. from a T/C .56cal. smooth rifle from a proper rest using .550" RB's, but with 60grs. Diamondback FFFg + a .010" patch lubed with 1 Ballistol : 6 water.


*You want a patch that isn't so thick/tight as to create problems seating.

**I've tried .018" (compressed) pillow ticking, holding everything else constant, but it was merely harder to ram down the bbl. I.e., it little/no effect on accuracy.

[Texantothecore]

I have seen some rather amazing acuracy out of smoothbores at reenactors gatherings. Surprised the heck out of me as they were hitting deer sized targets a some distance. It really changed my mind about smoothbores.

They also functioned quite well as trap shooters, 5 shooters, 10 birds apiece, no misses.

[Knight Templar]

I shot with a guy named Tom Henley in NY in the 80's. We shot a 50/50 target that had blocks of numbers. We would shoot at 100 yards and add up the numbers hit for a score. Well Tom shot a smooth bore flinter against us rifle shooters. They finally ended up posting his target blank side forward to give the rest of us a chance. That man could take the black out at 100 with no rear sight or rifling. Good times.

[longbow]

I like the versatility of the smoothbore in modern guns and that is why I have spent so much time working on slug and ball loads. My good round ball loads will stay within 4" at 50 yards but they spread out by 100 yards. However, I have read of smoothbore musket shooters claiming 3" groups out to 70 yards and heard comments from friends that some of the smoothbore shooters are competitive against rifles to 100 yards. Of course a lot of that depends on the quality of shooter and quality of gun ~ a poor shot with a poor quality rifle (and maybe poor load) may not be hard to beat by a good shot with a well made smoothbore he knows how to shoot.

One day I may get myself a trade musket. I have wanted one for a long time but have not been doing very much BP shooting so can't justify it right now. Yeah, I know go to shoots! I don't get enough time now to shoot the bow, shoot my .303's, .44, work on 12 ga. slugs and fish as it is. Adding another gun I won't use isn't in the cards for now. One day but not now. I will just play with my new fangled breech loading smoothbore for a while longer.

Thanks for the responses by the way.

Longbow

[Hanshi]

My flintlock smoothbore is almost comparable to a rifle at 25 yards. At 50yds I can rely on getting groups under 6" and occasionally about half that. I think around 60 yds is as far as I would shoot at a deer. I've killed one deer with it but it was a 20yd running (the deer, not me) shot. Considered in that light, a smoothbore gives up little to the rifle in the deer woods; but stretch that range out a bit and a smoothy just can't normally compete.

[longbow]

With regards to smoothbore breech loading shotgun I think the best description I have heard for round ball trajectories is "trumpet trajectory".

They fly pretty well out to 50 yards or maybe a bit further but start to pick up random flight somewhere between 50 and 100 yards with exponential increase in fliers and group size. I am sure it is due to the ball picking up random spin from drag (think curve ball in baseball but without the control to make it curve where you want). Regardless, a well launched ball seems to hold its own to 50 or maybe 60 yards.

I shoot mostly round balls in in shotcups so similar to patched round ball.

Like I said, you guys are the subject matter experts so I figured I would ask.

I kinda wish I hadn't though because now I am thinking more and more about that trade musket...

Now on that running deer shot, I have a story too. I once shot a running deer with my Pedersoli side by 12 ga. percussion gun. I had one barrel loaded with a 0.690" round ball (naked over wading) and the other side loaded with 12 pellets of 00 buck. I found myself in the middle of a thicket all tangled up with branches yanking off my hat and at my possibles bag and other stuff so I was cursing and struggling more than a bit. When I finally extracted myself I was about face to face with a curious spike buck. Well, the buck startled and ran almost directly away from me so I figured that 'ol .690" ball would penetrate end to end anyway so shot... and missed but the ball must have hit a tree in front of him as he instantly spun 180 degrees and ran right back at me so I cocked the hammer on the barrel of buckshot just as he realized he should change direction and turned to his right then from then on it was like trap shooting ~ the butt settled into my shoulder the bead lined up, I swung, led a bit and pulled the trigger. Down he went. I dug 9 out of 12 pellets out of him and he was well shredded internally. Range couldn't have been more than 25 yards.

I knew the ball wasn't very accurate but groups to 25 yards or so were decent and range was short so I gave it a go. I am glad it was a clean miss. I wouldn't do that again with a naked rattle fit ball. I was impressed with the buckshot though. Heart and lungs were perforated, left shoulder broken and left leg broken.

Longbow

[KCSO]

You wil need to find THE load for your gun and that can be a challenge. Once you have a load you should be inside 6" consistantly out to 75 yards and a good barrel and a really good load will shade that out to 100 yards. At 25 yards i can keep mst of my shots in the black of a 6 bull off hand and from a rest i have shot an 8" grout at 100 yards. I shoot either a 24 or a 20 ga right now and am loading 2 hard cards and a thinly patched tight fitting ball over the cards. I seem to get my best accuracy with a hotter load and I need at least 80 grains of ffg in the 20 to really group.

[missionary5155]

Good morning Longbow
I think I one one rifled flinter. A short barreled caliber.54 Cabala. Opps forgot the Hall and the caliber .36.
But the rest are smotthies and I count on them to be able to do less than 6 inches at 50 yards.
The muskets caliber .69's are very tempermental and I think that is because the bores are not perfect having slight variances in diameter that possible attribute to ball deflection down the barrel. Maybe it is just the nature of that fat heavy ball. But generally with the right load of 3F each can be coaxed to get to 6 inches at 50 yards. But sometimes the load is so anemic (35 grains in one) that I would view that as anti-productive and of little value in real life.

Have several flinters that are before 1830 and a couple that are Colonial. Smaller in calibers ranging from .60 to .52. They are somewhat easier to get under 6 inches at 50 yards. I would say 4 inches is the average I can get. Most have rear sights. One has a tang screw rotated so the slot serves as the rear sight. One has a barrel that is bent like a shallow "S" but will get the ball on target. 3F is my powder of choice. Repeatability is the factor with these. The barrels seem more uniform in internal diameter while pushing a ball down the bore. At least half required the muzzle to be trued to square with the last foot of the bore.
But the most accurate smoothies I have are those that have modern made barrels. Those barrels are very uniform in interior diameter. They seem to be very straight. They are much easier to shoot to 4 inches at 50 yards (if I do my part) . Again 3 F is my choice. They all have rear sights.

So as also being a cartrige 12 bore shooter I do not feel at all badly about 6 inches at 50 yards. Some loads with RB do better. That rear sight helps tremendously.
Due to where I hunt when up north there, river bottoms, I am not pressed to get supreme accuracy from my BP tools. It is fun to work at.. but the farthest I have shot a corn cruncher so far is 33 yards. That I could have done with my recurves. And so it has been many years since I fired any firearn at a large 4 legged beasty to eat. The last was the first year ILLinois had a revolver season in the central counties.
I do pray you can get a perminent job. A caliber .62 flinter will prove to be a real enjoyment. Do not overlook popping crows with it.
Mike in Peru

[mainiac]

My one and only smoothbore is a 28 gauge,and it will shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yards,pretty consistantly.Thought i might get it down to 1.5 inch,but i havent been able to as yet.My gun has front/rear sights,,,without them,i cant even amagine how huge it would shoot,with me driving it!!

[SamTexas49]

If you can catch the latest episode of May 15th "Impossible Shots" (titled Shooting USA’s Impossible Shots - Hip Shooting History Lesson)
Mr Flintlock takes on the challenge of shooting a Flint Lock smooth bore of his and hitting a tomato at 25 yd then a cantaloupe at 50 yr and finally a watermelon is pulverized at 100yd !

[Dutchman]

Using an Italian military musket .69 made at Torino in 1842... that was once a long musket but since the barrel split open (from gross overloads) and was shortened to a wee carbine... Shooting at a mountain side with a clear view of bullet hits @ 100 yards I could easily hit the mountain side.

From a quote in U.S. Firearms 1776-1876 by Butler:

"One went high
one went low
where in the hell
did the other one go?"


The barrel on the Torino musket split because the owner found out how much fun it was to load up with so much powder that it would knock down the shooter. The hammer-forged seam on the barrel was thick enough for the first 18 inches of barrel then thinned out as the barrel diameter was reduced. It split open like a tin can. He took a hacksaw to it and made it a carbine. I passed it up for $35 in 1968.


Dutch

[HARRYMPOPE]

My 56 TC Renegade and GM Barreled Hawken .615/20 smooth rifle were good for 5" or so at 50 yards.I shot some 2" groups but not many.These were 5 shot groups i got many 3 shot groups very small.