New Wad Slug To Try

[longbow]

It has been slow going but I decided to use the best features of slugs tested so far to make a new mould. This is an attached wad slug Brenneke/AQ style as so far I have had good results with these. Actually the best results I have had are with a Rapine .730" TC slug and my own undersize TC hollow base slug. I had altered the TC hollow base mould to make a TC attached wad slug which worked pretty well but was still undersize so had to be paper patched to snug fit.

So, I decided to try a Lee Drive Key slug with attached wad and that worked pretty well too but since th eLee Slugs are tapered, it is a bit difficult to get a form lined up to keep the attached wad dead in line. A taper machined form would work but I am lazy and sizing the Lee slugs down some making them straight sided would probably work too but again, I am lazy. So, I made a TC mould with small hollow base simply for glue area (attached wads are hot melt glue), a nose band to fit standard shotcups with snug fit to bore, reduced shank to suit typical shotcup inside base dimensions then made glue forms to slide over the shank for alignment. Worked out pretty well.

Now to see if they shoot!

Attached is a photo showing from left to right: new TC slug, Lee Drive key slug with attached wad recovered from snow, TC solid recovered from snow, TC solid recovered after passing through an 8" poplar tree then smucking a rock.

The attached wad seems to swell to fill the bore well at firing as they are quite undersize yet you can see a black streak on the slug third from th left where it filled out to the wad petal slits. Most recovered slugs have the same marks, yet the glue retains its strength and shape overall.

Yeah, I know the new TC nose doesn't have a big enough meplat... I already fixed that so the next batch have a bigger meplat like the TC solid.

I am hoping to send some slugs down range this weekend.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

How do you form the hot melt wads and don't they leave residue? Wait, the hot melt and slug are in a plastic wad...BTW we're you aiming at that helpless tree??? Hah!

[longbow]

I use bored out 1/2" CPVC pipe couplings for glue forms and grease the inside so glue does not stick. I tried 30 wt. oil and that didn't work well (just ask me!). Grease does work well though.

If I do my part the glue wads come out pretty nicely.

Yes, these are wad slugs not full bore or they would leave a mess!!!!! I have used a similar style of full bore slug but used a two wrap paper tube and cast glue inside it.

And, yes I was aiming for the helpless little tree! He couldn't move and I wanted to see if the glue wads would stay with the slugs and so they do. I have recovered slugs from snow, rocky hillsides and our 100 yard sand berm and generally the glue wads are still attached.

The solid TC slug has a screw run into the base then glue poured around it. The new TC has a small hollow base for glue adhesion and no running a screw in (I'm lazy!).

The Lee of course is big hollow base so lots of area for glue adhesion. They shot not badly at all considering the glue skirts aren't dead in line ~ about 4" groups at 50 yards which was better than naked Lee's. I only shot a few groups though an no load development so not a good test.

I am hoping these new ones do well.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

'Scuse all the ?? But I'm interested in this...what's the ballpark weight of the hot melt wads and would they stand up to Ga. Heat? 90* +

[longbow]

Hmmmm, I will have to weigh just a wad to find out. The hot melt glue is quite light when one considers how strong it is.

I should also say this is high strength hot melt glue not the general rubbery stuff. This stuff is amber and is almost as hard as polyethylene. I think in a shotcup it wouldn't matter much but just saying that is what I use.

I don't think 90* is a problem, we get very hot here in the summer and I have had no problems with the glue in ambient heat. I do put afilm of grease on the glue wads before loading just to make sure they don't stick to the shotcup. So far so good!

My logic with this is that I want a choke safe slug so undersize and in a shotcup is good and the glue seems to "slug up" at firing filling the bore and giving tight fit. It also retains its shape as you can see. Hollow base slugs generally deform quite a bit as well as slugging up often unevenly. I have a whack of recovered factory and home cast hollow base slugs including Gualandi DGS slugs and almost all are quite badly distorted.

Solids and Brenneke style do not seem to suffer form distortion issues.

I have tried a variety of materials as attached wads screwed on and have failed miserably but the hot melt glue is cheap, easy and seems to work pretty well. I have a lathe so can make forms pretty easy.

The goal is a consistent clean edged attached wad.

I will weigh some wads only and let you know what they weigh. I haven't even weighed these new slugs yet. the TC solid is about 525 grs. as was the hollow base design. I have shot slugs up to 800 grs. but recipes are hard to find so I like to stay under about 1 3/8 oz. for ease of finding load data.

For shots to 50 yards or a bit further, I am sold on round balls. however, my goal was consistent 6" or smaller groups at 100 yards from smoothbore. Not there yet!

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

You're using ferrel cement I use for arrows, etc. Gotcha.

[longbow]

Nope, not ferrel cement, just high strength hot melt glue. Ferrel cement is clear amber and really hard. No reason it wouldn't work but I think it is much more expensive than hot melt glue.

I use a standard glue gun with 1/2" diameter glue sticks and just pump it into the forms with the slug in place so the glue bonds to the slug. I added a small hollow base because the glue can shear off a flat base. The screw run into a flat base works well to but is more work and I think i mentioned, I am lazy.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Good to see you're still at it, Longbow. We'll beat this sucker or perish trying

The polypropylene wads are put on hold for the moment. Turned out the viscosity was to high to get the plastic flowing properly. Some sort of pressurized injection is needed for filling a mold - too much hassle at the moment. Instead I'm working on your 'glue wad' concept, only I'm experimenting with epoxy instead of glue. I've done some preliminary testing, hoping to be able to cast a wad sandwiched between the slug and a seal/card in one go. Unfortunately this is not easily accomplished. Once hardened the epoxy will not compress, so the epoxy core diameter must be small enough to pass through a full choked barrel. This means the mold would have to be a two-part design.

Instead, I've gone for a two stage operation where the wad are molded with the base seal in place, and then glued into the base of the slug. Hopefully the bond will be strong enough without a screw. So far I have only made a single wad for proof of concept, but I hope to test the new wads during the weekend.

A few pictures of the new type wad and the mold:

[Carryacolt]

Cap'n
Are you using the "green wad" primarily as an op wad? Is the dark center "wad" adjustable for length for any crimp adjustment or different powder selection?
Good job on progress made so far.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Cap'n
Are you using the "green wad" primarily as an op wad? Is the dark center "wad" adjustable for length for any crimp adjustment or different powder selection?
Good job on progress made so far.

The green plastic wad is a combined over powder wad/seal. Italian made, 1/4" thick, it can be stacked as high as needed. The epoxy wad can not be adjusted lengthwise other than making a new mold. The mold has a distinct step which the plastic wad rests against. The wads are pushed in place, and the cavities are filled with epoxy from the front. This, combined with the tapered front, which match the slug cavity exactly, should keep everything aligned during launch... hopefully. Notice, I use the word "hopefully" a lot

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

Yes, still at it but I suspect I will perish trying to achieve my goal! I hope one of us survives and conquers though!

I have not tried much other than a couple of kinds of hot melt glue. I found it flowed pretty well and especially since I am Using CPVC pipe fittings, for moulds, that holds heat as well allowing good fillout. I thought about epoxy but figured it was too hard/brittle. That of course depends on the epoxy you can find as they have different properties. Your comment just made me think of something too ~ urethane. I am not sure of specs but many years ago I was involved in a monorail design with driving wheels using a cast urethane tires. The first wheels were too hard so the fab shop made a more "rubbery" mix and those softer tires worked well. That urethane flowed into every nook and cranny of the mould too. Not sure of the cost but if not prohibitive, a soft urethane might be the answer. It is a two part mix like regular epoxies.

You are not the only one who uses words like "hopefully" a lot when referring to upcoming slug tests, let me tell you!

Hopefully my new slug will shoot well for example. That undersize TC solid did pretty well and this one is a better fit so again hopefully...

I really like the looks of your slug. Have you recovered any after shooting?

I have many recovered slugs I have shot and that others have shot. I like to see what happens as they travel down the bore and recoverking slug after the snow melts can tell a guy a lot. I have found more types of slugs with crushed ribs or that cocked in the bore and almost all hollow base slugs are scrunched from slugging up.

I really should post a photo. I will try to get to it shortly. I think it will be very educational for many.

Looking forward to your upcoming test results.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Yes....Photos pls!

[silas oberhauser]

At what point does the tail of the slug become too long? What if you took a rod of poliethylene and machined them into nondiscarding sabots. You could put gas rings and bore out the front for what ever bullet you wanted. Or you could shape them just like captain did to fit in the rear of the slug. I have millions of ideas that come to me and I have to write them down so I don't forget. My wife even got me ato filing cabnet to keep all of my ideas that iI draw out on paint Lol sorry for the spelling im on my phone.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Since I already hijacked Longbow's thread, here's a short follow-up on the epoxy wads...

Four shots at fifty meters, the results were so-so, but not entirely bad. Two of the slugs hit dead center only a couple of inches apart, the other two were fliers striking some twelve inches apart. It was obvious from examining the target, that both the two fliers had struck at an angle, making irregular holes compared to the two center hits which had cut perfectly round holes.

I searched for the slugs, but only managed to find the two "fliers" Both slugs still had the epoxy wad attached, indicating the wad is more than strong enough and the Araldite two-component glue used to secure the wad to the slug base will hold up as well. Both plastic seals was also present, but no longer attached and both were badly shredded on the outer lips. My theory (and that's all it is) is this happened while the slugs were still in the barrel and this is what caused the slugs to veer off. Oddly enough, even though the seals can easily be peeled off the bottom of wad, they remained attached until impact in spite of the drag. I've now made a few more slugs with both wad & seal glued in place. Tomorrow we shall see... hopefully.

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

My feeling is that you should leave the gas seal loose so if discards.

I have had trouble with gas seals as well especially with "hard" wad columns or solid slugs. I think it must be due to pressure and maybe a spike if no cushion leg is there to collapse and absorb some "punch". Not sure and it is just a guess.

Anyway, if a lip shreds and the seal is going along for the ride then it will affect flight. My opinion anyway.

I hope to get out and test my new design soon as well. I had hoped this weekend but I think it will have to wait a week or two.

Those slugs of yours look pretty goo after recovery. i don't see any obvious flattening of ribs or othe rproblems. good going!

I posted a bunch of photos of recovered slugs in another thread. Some of my home made Brenneke style slugs are in the collection. I had trouble with ribs collapsing.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow,

I'll load up a few rounds with the seals glued in place, and a few with a dab of silicone instead of glue for comparison. The silicone should - dare I say, hopefully - ensure positive separation of the seal from the wad.

[silas oberhauser]

So is there a limit on how long the tail can be beforeit is pointless?

[Cap'n Morgan]

So is there a limit on how long the tail can be beforeit is pointless?

I don't think so. Make the tail long enough and you'll end up with an arrow, but it would still work. Check out "Von Witzleben's shotgun dart" on this page:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/historia5.html

However, there's probably little gained going any longer than 2 x the slug diameter. The original Brenneke is about 1.7 x diameter and is more or less the yardstick slugs are compared against. My own slug design is "overbore" without the wad attached (0.85 x diameter) and still shoots pretty well on their own. In fact, a properly designed slug, with the center of gravity well towards the front, will shoot better without a wad attached unless the wad is absolutely straight and concentric to the slug when it leaves the muzzle.

[longbow]

So is there a limit on how long the tail can be beforeit is pointless?

I'm with Cap'n Morgan if we are talking really long because yup, you basically get an arrow and if you look at modern smoothbore artillery rounds using discarding sabots, they are very dart/arrow like. However, with hollow base lead slugs (Foster style) I think there is an optimum length of around 1 1/2 to 2 times slug length. I think it was turbo1889 that posted information on best length to diameter ratio some time ago.

It is probably due to how the shock waves form along the slug but that is a guess on my part. I use slugs like Brenneke and AQ as my guidelines because I figure if there was a better length to use they would be using it and both perform very well as they are.

No direct knowledge here, just gut feel, copying commercial designs and of course it has to fit in a hull so there is the final length limit.

Having said that. I did make a mould up several years ago and it was to produce an RNFP wad slug with solid nose, deep hollow base and long thin skirt. The idea being good clean base edges and weight forward slug with as much weight as possible in the nose. It was about as long as a Brenneke with very thin skirt so was filled with hot melt glue to keep the skirt from collapsing. They were a nice snug fit into shotcups but did not shoot well at all.

I only recovered one from snow and it looks like it could be shot again and wads looked good. You can see it here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ecovered-Slugs

4th from the left.

I don't have it in front of me but I am guessing it is 2x as long as diameter. Why didn't it work? I have no clue unless the only one I recovered was the only one that didn't suffer skirt damage or maybe it violated the length to diameter rule or...? I shot several but accuracy was so poor I didn't bother working on it again.

Just another slug shooting mystery I guess.

Longbow

[OnHoPr]

Interesting concept longbow. What type of wads do you put those in or do they just sit on top of a gas seal? I like the fact that they might be more consistent under launch in regards to irregular collapse such as in the conventional wads sometimes at least in my lead thrower. Same with the wad column of the pics in cap' n morgan's post. Are you shooting or just referring to smooth bores or are rifled tubes on the plate, also? Your post gave me an idea to use the hot glue in a multimetal wad. That is to fill the wad up to the desired level with hot glue according to setting up for a good roll or crimp with the Lee slug or etc. with the possibility of a thin nitro card on top of the glue. Then split the pedals just to the bottom of the slug. It might be a lot more consistent in the canting of irregular wad collapse. That BPI wad is pretty tough in the pedal area and especially the base of the wad where it really has beefy characteristics. That length of glue and wad would still have some cushioning characteristics also. The slug would also leave the wad when it exited the barrel. Do you have any concerns that the attached wad might throw a wobble to the back of the slug in revolutions in a rifled barrel or some type of a drag or offset weight to the smooth bore barrel?