New .38 S&W load (from Buffalo Bore)

[gunfan]

38 S&W (NEW COLT POLICE) - 125 gr. Hard Cast FN 1,000 fps - 20 Round Box
PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 S&W or 38 COLT NEW POLICE (item 20.5A)

After countless customer requests for ammunition that will make the 38 S&W cartridge lethal to humans, Buffalo Bore is delivering. There are millions of small revolvers still in circulation chambered for this cartridge and if an ammo company was to make effective self-defense ammo, the little revolvers would have a meaningful purpose for personal defense against humans. Current (as of this writing in 03-2013) factory ammunition offerings include soft pure lead bullets of round nose configuration at very low velocity. Round nosed bullets do little terminal damage as they tend to slip and slide through mammalian tissues and the very low velocities don’t help much either.

In order to make this cartridge more lethal for defense against humans, we designed hard cast (not soft) bullets that will not deform on impact and will maintain their flat nose profile as they penetrate through muscle and bone and because of their flat nose, they crush (not slip and slide) through mammalian tissues, doing considerable damage along their path. Then we added velocity by using modern powders that will give extra velocity and remain within the SAAMI pressure limits of 13,000 CUP. The result is a lethal cartridge that brings new usefulness to these old pistols. In fact, this load is as powerful as most ordinary 38 SPL ammo currently being made, by most ammunition companies! Depending on how much clothing must be penetrated and how much bone is encountered, expect 22 to 30 inches of straight line penetration in mammalian tissue with this load. This 125gr. hard cast bullet is moving roughly 250 fps faster than other commercial ammo we tested of the same bullet weight and due to bullet design, this load was more accurate than other commercial loads we tested.

The use of jacketed expanding ammunition in this weak cartridge would be a mistake as even if you could get a jacketed bullet to expand at these velocities, doing so would limit penetration significantly enough that the bullet would certainly under-penetrate and as a result would likely not be deadly to humans. Also, hard cast bullets are more “slick” than jacketed bullets and hence generate more velocity at less pressure than comparable jacketed bullets.

We have utilized flash suppressed powder so the shooter will not be blinded by his/her own gun fire in low light situations and this can be an important advantage as the criminal element and wildlife are much more active in the darkness.

This ammunition is safe to use in ANY solid frame revolver that is in ordinary shooting condition. “Solid frame” means any revolver that is not a top break frame. “Ordinary shooting condition”, means ANY revolver that is in condition to fire any factory made, 38 S&W ammo, without malfunction. Have a competent gun smith check your revolver for “ordinary shooting condition” if you have doubts, as many of these revolvers are very old and some imports were made of questionable quality as manufacturing techniques and materials were not advanced one hundred+ years ago. Be certain to take a copy of this press release to your gunsmith, so he can understand the context of your questions.

The only two top break (not solid frame) revolver manufacturers that can use this ammunition are British Enfield and Webley. Both these models feature heavy frames and robust latches that resist deformation. All other “top break” models should never be fired with this ammunition.

We have continued our practice of using real over-the-counter revolvers to develop our published velocities of this ammunition. The duplicitous practice of using extra-long laboratory barrels to develop published velocities is deceptive to the customer. Real world users of firearms and ammunition need to know how the ammunition is performing in the real world, where it matters.

1030 fps -- S&W Regulation Police 6 inch
977 fps -- S&W Regulation Police 4 inch
926 fps -- S&W Regulation Police 4 inch
874 fps -- S&W 2 inch

[jmort]

Agree with everything Tim Sundles said.

[gunfan]

After looking at the plethora of solid-frame 4" plus barreled revolvers chambered for the .38 S&W (.38 Colt New Police) This new load should make carrying the old Colt "Bankers Special" and S&W "Terrier" owners very happy. There's nothing wrong with these revolvers that a nice, hot 124 grain hard cast lead bullet smoking out the barrel at .38 Special +P velocities won't cure!

Scott

[JWFilips]

OK Now where do we get them! Or should I say When can we get them. If anyone finds out please post it here!

[Salmoneye]

After countless customer requests for ammunition that will make the 38 S&W cartridge lethal to humans,

Excuse me???



As the round was a military standard in Britain, I'd say at the very most they are reinventing the wheel...

[gunfan]

After countless customer requests for ammunition that will make the 38 S&W cartridge lethal to humans,

Excuse me???



As the round was a military standard in Britain, I'd say at the very most they are reinventing the wheel...

No, they're just moving the round into the 21st century with modern propellant technology and hard cast bullets of the proper size. Nothing here beyond the normal scope of ballistic advancement.

P.S. You really need to get out more.

Scott

[gunfan]

OK Now where do we get them! Or should I say When can we get them. If anyone finds out please post it here!

You can order them at: www.buffalobore.com

Scott

[Salmoneye]

No, they're just moving the round into the 21st century with modern propellant technology and hard cast bullets of the proper size. Nothing here beyond the normal scope of ballistic advancement.

P.S. You really need to get out more.

Scott

So your contention is that the British .38/200 round was not lethal to humans?

My exception was with the wording, not the fact that they have managed to boost a small pill almost to .38SPCL velocities...Their poorly written sentence would have us believe that the round was not "lethal to humans" till they came along...

As for the 'proper size', I have slugged .38 S&W bores from .354" to .360"...

There's a reason that most factory offerings in .38 S&W are undersized, and anemic...

It's pretty clear who needs to 'get out more'...

[JWFilips]

Anybody recognize that boolit?
Sure looks "Ranch Doggish" very similar to my .32acp 75 gr .314" RD boolits
Interesting concept: I have been working for soft & heavy boolits moving about 800fps They are using the reverse Fast Light & Hard! I wonder if my wife will like them better? ( No pun intended)

[blackhawk4545]

I might be all wet, but I will continue to use a 158 gr swc of ww lead pushed by 5 grs of 231 for my hoodlum-getters.

[revolvergeek]

I might be all wet, but I will continue to use a 158 gr swc of ww lead pushed by 5 grs of 231 for my hoodlum-getters.

That's a .38 spl load though, right, not .38 S&w?

[gunfan]

I spoke to a local hand loader that is also loading 158 grain bullets in his .38 S&W as well. I don't know whether he is molding his own or purchasing them.

Scott

[Radarsonwheels]

I got 100 of these buffalo bore rounds after I bought a 1914 colt 4" police positive. It was the only ammo or even brass I could find anywhere and the starline brass was a big plus. It was not accurate in my revolver, pretty snappy, and a chore to shoot.

I don't have any .360 molds so I have been loading 158 grain round nose .360 hardcast purchased from roger's better bullets in King of Prussia PA. I use just over 2 grains of titegroup under it- a fast powder. I haven't chronographed it but it shoots soft and I get 1" groups at ten yards with my little revolver. The buffalo bore stuff was like 4" groups at 10 yards, yuck.

I'm not sure I would want this gun for a gun fight, but it wins every time in a knife fight with my subsonic ammo. I know I wouldn't stand in front of it!

[FergusonTO35]

I gotta give them props for bringing this fine old cartridge up to speed. I've often thought that this squat little 1870's relic would make a dandy round if loaded for a strong gun.

[Outpost75]

My limited experience with these revolvers suggests that the much lighter 125-grain bullets are going to shoot 6" or more low relative to the sights.

I would have much rather seen them load a full charge wadcutter, using a conventional sharp-shoulder, soft-lead, 148-grain hollowbased bullet, seated out to 1.20" OAL with 2.5 grains of Bullseye or 3 grains of Unique for about 750 fps from a 4" revolver, approximating the performance of the .38 Special wadcutter, which is well proven. Speer has recommended similar loads for the swing-out cylinder, solid-frame guns of this caliber, since the 1970s.

They are no "secret" among people who own and actually USE these revolvers. The soft HBWC bullet expands normally and accuracy is better than 146-gr. LRN factory loads.