It may not be as hard to get deeper rifling, as you think. Years ago, we would have barrels rifled .004 deeper than standard, from Montana Rifle Barrel Co. It was run by Jerry Cunningham, who now has Orion barrels. He's known for good thousand yard barrels. Check with him. you may be pleasantly surprised.
I tend to believe that folks who screw on a custom tube really don't skimp on the rest of the outfit or the proper preparation of the ammunition. Like you said, "Different strokes for different folks" It would be like putting recaps on a Ferrari - you could, but why would you want to??Originally Posted by StarMetal
Trooper Bret,
I don't think the discussion was all that bad and I didn't see where anyone got called any names. Bass is right about disagreeing posts because like he said they make folks think. He's no dummy, he sits back thinks and gains knowledge on things......but that's nice to give Bass an "A" and let eveyone know he's not the stinker that's getting an "F".
Joe
Never mind Joe, apparently I shot high and my point was missed. I'll cruise on over to Ebay now.........................
I look to this board strictly for information first. So I take nothing personal. It helps to get perspective because you tend to get too involved in yours.
Take yesterday. I had to pull off a 7MM08 barrel off a Remington and screwed on another take off in 243. No big deal. Except that this is the 6th or 7th change as the guy wants to find a superior shooter. So far he has spent more in shipping probably than it would have cost for a new tube. I don't know if he is making or losing money on the trades. Plus, there is a fee. Statistically, a new tube would have solved the quest long ago.
Joe,
I missed the Lilja comment about smoothness. Lilja makes excellent barrels. I can't ever remember getting a bad one. You should realize that you tout stuff that gives you an edge over the competition with the customer. So if they are touting smoothness, who are they comparing themselves too? Read the rest of their stuff. It is excellent. They will tell you about the whole process to include straightening. Seems every barrel that is buttoned requires some degree of this. Some companies have the equipment and take the time to do this, some don't. But their barrels are $80 more than the base level. They get steel made to their own specs too. Not the generic stuff that is offered to everybody else.
Felix,
So you like a tapered bore with a ever so slight gain twist. Dad's Walther is just like that. In fact, I believe that it is Lothar Walther barrels on the new Mausers imported by Charles Daly. Best steel too in both varieties. A heat treat process that takes two weeks to perform. They have a web site and you can read about the processes. These are my choice for the best buy right now for $300 and change if you like the caliber choices. They have a 7.62X39.
There are differences worth investigating and all the makers have sites to sell ya on their methods.
If I had more money than sense, I would buy a Krieger barrel. I pulled targets for an old guy in a high power match who held the x-ring on a 200 yard reduced target from prone. I was in awe. The guy uses kriegers on his match and Service rifles and probably burns through 2 or 3 a year. I can't shoot that good to start with and probably never will be able to, so an A&B barrel is good enough for me. Heck, even the fresh, made by the mile, chopped to length remington 2-groove barrel that I screwed onto my 03A3 makes me look good and the tool marks in that one look frightening.
Having worked as a machinist making both cut and button rifled barrels, I have a couple of comments to toss onto the table. What can make or break a button or a cut rifled barrel for shooting cast (or jacketed) bullets takes place after drilling and before the rifling. The reaming operation is the place where it happens. Some barrel makers make one pass with the reamer, the better make two, and the best, three. The drilling process leaves the worst tool marks, and depending on how sharp the carbide tip of the deep hole drill is, and how talented the person who does the sharpening of it on the diamond wheel, determines how much needs to be removed in the reaming process. We used two passes with two different sized reamers before pull buttoning and produced barrels with better than average accuracy. (For comparison, Hart Barrels use three step reaming before push buttoning - I was taught action prep and chambering by Jerry Hart at RIT and toured their shop as part of the course. As you know, they make some of the most accurate barrels produced anywhere.) We weren't supposed to say how many of the big gunmakers used our barrels when they were unable to produce enough of their own, but the list was a real eye-opener. (They do many, many times the volume now than we did in the 80's when I worked there.) It might be of interest to mention that all the muzzle loader barrels we made were smooth buttoned after reaming to remove the last of the drill marks before cut rifling. Those cut rifled barrels set A LOT of records, too. If the barrel has not been properly prepped before the rifling is cut, there are lots of deep perpendicular tool marks left in the bore, you can see it with a bore scope, but mostly you notice it as poor accuracy on the range and fouling builds up both quicker and thicker.That's the main difference between a cheap import barrel and a fairly priced import or American made one. Buttoned or cut doesn't make any difference if they're not properly reamed before they're rifled, and not much when they are, either. It's the reaming, not the rifling that is to blame. Most people have no access to bore scopes, but if you did, you'd be amazed at how rough even the most ultra accurate match barrels appear under extreme magnification, and cut rifled barrels foul up just as bad with copper and lead deposits as the buttoned variety.
So if you want a "budget" priced barrel and stock to "build" a rifle on a M 98 Mauser large ring action this is about as "budget" as I think you will get. They have 16 calibers to choose from as well. This is $10.00 less than Midway's regular price for the barrel alone at $89.99. If you like A & B Barrels, this should make you "REAL HAPPY". They also have stereo electroic hearing (earmuff) protectors for $29.99. These prices are in their December "Flyer" #222, on the front page. I am not associated with Midway in any way. I do like some of their sale prices.
Getting old is the best you can hope for.
I guess it's possible that Midway has someone assigned to cull all their A & B barrels, and send me the very best they've got whenever I order one, but if that's so, they've been doing it for 5 years or more. So far, I've rebarreled several Mausers, and a couple of Rugers with A & B tubes, and I haven't found one yet that wouldn't overlap holes at 100 yards with a little barrel break-in and a good reload. So far, that's happened with a stainless .22-250 , a 7 X 57, a 7 Mag., a 6.5-06 made from a 6.5 Swede barrel, and a couple of .30-06's. I've got 3 more in progress, a .338-06, another .22-250, chromemoly this time, and a .25-06. I'll also be rechambering another Swede barrel to a custom-specification 6.5 Rem. Mag with some extra freebore to allow a lot longer than SAAMI OAL.
Here's an informal 300-yard group fired off the tailgate of my pickup with the Ruger M-77 6.5-06 during a groundhog hunt when the whistlepigs weren't cooperating. (OK, it's actually 297 yards, confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) 100 grain Sierra hp's, at 3,400 FPS.
I think I'll hang onto this one, until I can afford a fancy barrel!
Jerry
Last edited by Teach; 12-29-2005 at 01:14 AM.
No heresy allowed here, Jerry. We all know those A&B barrels don't cost enough to shoot well. Next thing you know, you'll be telling us you get good results with Lee dies and reloading equipment. Even worse, you might try to convince someone that the Lee reloading manual is worth using.
No heresy allowed!
Teach---Why you having a 25-06 made when you don't list having a .270? What will the 25-06 possibly do that a .270 wont do better? (I don't have a .270 either)
Grumble, you've been reading my mail! The ammo that shot that group was loaded on a Lee Turret press that I've been using for the past 20 years! I think I did use RCBS dies, though! I haven't seen anything a .270 can do that my 6.5-06 can't do just a little bit better, although my son-in-law has a Ruger M77 MK II that I load for. The .25-06 is going to a bird dog trainer in Ohio, in exchange for a pup he gave me with a bloodline that goes back into the 1930's. I think it's a pretty good swap! The next one that's going together just for me is the 6.5 Rem Mag. I've gotta build another one of the grandkids a deer rifle first, though. Here's a small-ring Mauser I just finished for my new step-granddaughter, who's going to be the reincarnation of Annie Oakley, it seems!
BTW, that's a 3-shot group, with two through the same hole! Not bad for an 11-year-old's first time with a centerfire rifle! The gun is a small-ring Spanish Mauser, with a cock-on-open kit and a 7.62X39 barrel and magazine adapter from Gun Parts Co. It's got a Timney trigger, a Corelite stock from Midway, and a Tasco World Class 3X9X40 scope. Yeah, I know, cheap stuff all around, but the deer won't ask what it cost! She had to get it on the range before I even had a chance to blue it, so it looks a little better now!
Jerry
The 6.5-06 is, for the size of it's case, possibly the flatest shooting round going. The only other one that comes close to it in that size is the 25-06.
If you all remember on the old Shooters, Master Gunner, he had a 6.5-06 made up for 1000 yard shooting and was darn good at it.
Joe
I dunno about you Jerry. Going on the cheap for everything, and then you BUY your targets? Whatsa-matter you? <G>
That is a great family pic. My compliments to the young lady, and to her grampa for being so indulgent!
That's the main difference between a cheap import barrel and a fairly priced import or American made one. Buttoned or cut doesn't make any difference if they're not properly reamed before they're rifled, and not much when they are, either. It's the reaming, not the rifling that is to blame. Most people have no access to bore scopes, but if you did, you'd be amazed at how rough even the most ultra accurate match barrels appear under extreme magnification, and cut rifled barrels foul up just as bad with copper and lead deposits as the buttoned variety.
Thanks for your experience here in manufacturering. Nicely written too.
But as a user I whole heartedly disagree. When we get into these discussions for lead barrels the accuracy issue always turns to jacketed. People just automatically turn to jacketed because they believe it to be the best point to argue. And this is aided by people thinking in terms of cast bullet velocities. What makes a good jacketed barrel is different from a good lead barrel. Unless you are shooting low velocity loads. So this is where I lose most people. If you have a good cut rifled barrel and tall rifling, there is no advantage to using a jacketed bullet up to 3200 fps where lead melts in the air in high humidity. The best lead barrel I ever hand my hands on wouldn't shoot copper in a 2" group. But I could sling ACWW well over 3000 fps just like it was jacketed. And better than most people shoot copper.
If we had barrels made like this today, then this would be a mute discussion and everyone would just nod their heads when they read this stuff. As it is, quality, experienced men think in terms of jacketed logic and stagnent cast velocities. And they think benchrest accuracy. And for that they may be entirely correct. I have no way to disprove them. There is no slight to an A&B barrel here at all. Nor anyone elses. Would it be my first or second choice for a custom? No. But they usually don't have the rifling height or bore finish to make good high velocity lead outfits either. Key word there is usually.
A good copper barrel is dimensionally correct or the bullets will make it that way fairly fast. A rough finish actually cuts friction. Ol'timers used to call it burnishing the bore. Today, we call it breakin. Low rifling height is benificial as taller isn't needed because of copper strength. It also helps to cut pressure. Not a concern for lead really. Also important is a bore of exactly the same size to just slightly bigger to minimise friction. Gas cutting is a non issue. Less friction, less heat. Less heat, less elongation and vibration to have to control. Less stress induced in the manufacturing theoretically allows more consistent vibration and wider "sweet spots" too.
If you really believe that the difference is in how many times they are bored, then you should realize that these extra steps were designed to prevent inducing stress into the steel. Buttoned rifling induces the most stress of any method and cut the least. Dimensional perfection and finish is important. And rifling height is everything .... with using soft cast. Also the way the tool marks are arranged in the bore. Buttoned rifling is across the bore. Like a file. Cut rifling is with the bore. A cut riffle barrel will take longer to break in with copper and will really foul worse than a button rifled one. True. But a cut rifled barrel fouls far less with lead. Ol'timers used to take their muzzle loaders back in to have them "freshened up". That meant to put tool makes back into the barrel in a parallel fashion with the bore to improve performance and minimize fouling and it's effects. Or so they say. At least they believed it. And all they had to shoot was lead.
Now I mention all of this and people go this guy is crazy. But then, over half of them will say microgroove stinks for HV cast bullet use. SAME THING! It's just that we don't have the rifling height to go on up so everyone would understand what I am saying. Thus, we belive that the limitation to cast bullets is the cast bullet. My point is that the limitation to cast bullets is the barrels.
....or maybe we all should sell all our moulds and casting equipment and buy Corbin jacket bullet swaging equipment and say the hell with what kind of rifling is in the barrel. No no, not get rid of your ws's we'll still use those to make the cores. The Corbin machinery has enough grunt to swage that. Well still be casting sorta and we'll definately be making our own bullets too. Yep, that's it, quit cast bullets.
Can I take my waders off now John? hehehehe
Joe
I have had at least a half dozen rifles re-barreled with Adams and Bennet and my cousin has had another three done with the A&B. So far only one gave any trouble at all. That was on my 25-06 Mauser. The barrel was rough and would not shoot very well. After intense firelapping the barrel smoothed out to an acceptable level of fouling and finally ended up being a 3/4" shooter. This barrel only sees jacketed bullets but it is the worst of the A&B barrels I have seen. The rest all shot sub-moa and cleaned easily right from the start.
I have had one Douglas barrel which is a 6mm and it copper fouls as bad as the 25-06 barrel ever did. I'm still working with that one.
I would go with the A&B and before you have it threaded and chambered, clean it well and see if you can feel any roughness. If you don't like it return it for another before any more time and money is invested.
Due to the small sampling of Douglas barrels I cannot condemn them but I can vouch for the A&B's being pretty darn good in my book.
Joe
Joe,
Absolutely, The limits of todays barrels is not to shoot lead accurately, but to shoot lead accurately at higher rifle velocities. The lower the rifling height, the lower the velocity ceiling.
If Shilean thought that there was no difference in the requirements for internal bore conditions for between both metal types, they wouldn't have a Cast bullet barrel department. Would they?
Bass,
I don't remember John saying he had a separate cast dept when I talked to him. He did say that they can make deeper grooves with button rifling if someone wanted that for cast shooting, which he did say was perferrable.
Joe
Joe,
Well, I am about 1/3 the way through a test to demonstrate exactly what I am saying. So far, the test is going my way. I will post results only if it prooves me right.
In the mean time, tomorrow is for fire lapping a 7MM Douglas air guage and a 22 Shilean Select Match. Both fire the first three shots into less than 1/2". Next three are 1 1/2" to 2" and the third three of 4" or worse. Bores look like a gold mine at that point. And after the proper breakin and 200 rounds, they either clean up or they come off.
Last edited by Bass Ackward; 01-06-2006 at 09:22 PM.
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