Adams & Bennet bbls

[Scrounger]

Bass Akward
Admittedly I am a simple minded man and my depth of understanding is a scratch on the surface so I am having trouble with this. Your explanation of the changing twist and consequent gas leakage sounded good until I started thinking about one of my most favorite names in cast boolit shooting history, Mr. Harry Pope. Everyone knows the history and that old Harry was a master, but some may not know that some of his best barrels were gain twist. With a gain twist there will be the same conditions you described for changing rifling pitch but there was apparently no gas leakage in Pope barrels. Perhaps this had something to do with the shallow groove (micro groove) rifling he used, or rounded bottom or ratchet/angled bottom grooves. I dont know, as I said I cant fathom it all but as always I end up thinking that someones neatly packaged explanation doesn't tell the whole story of what is happening. No offense intended here but I think we will end up the way we did with our long ago lube discussion that there are still some blanks in the story to be filled in.
BIC/Friend/BS

Your final words about "blanks to be filled in" is the big truth we all have to keep in mind. I think you are also correct in your feelings about shallow MicroGroove barrels. But I have to disagree with your theory regarding Pope and gain twist. An incident as B A described would produce one area of "stretched" rifling followed by a return to a shorter rifling. The gain twist starts out long and spirals shorter with each revolution, thereby sealing any gas leakage, at least in theory. At least that's the way I see it, but I'm sure Joe will tell me I'm wrong, and since I can't prove otherwise, I won't argue with him. There, Joe, saved you a post...

[carpetman]

Jumptrap---That JD will probably atleast scratch the top inch or two of soil---unless they used Chevy parts in it.

[Bass Ackward]

BA,

Great. Shaw has a place and a market niche in this world. And for jacketed we even recommend them to some folks. That's why they are still in business. And you can not beat their prices. We always wish everyone luck. Unfortunately, we see the other side too. Understand far more complaints are always heard than positive responses on anything.

Steel quality enters into my opinion too. Throats gone and the guy swears in less than 400 rounds. So by the time you get a barrel broken in , you can need a new one. Barrel makers have no control over that but it helps to use better steel. Better, harder, tougher steel doesn't lend itself to button rifling. Only hammer forging or cut rifling.


Ray,

Without any mention of standards for air guaged, it is like buying a used vehilce and the guy tells you it has never been wrecked. What does that say about it's mechanical condition? Even if a barrel says it is air guaged to within .0003 which is very tight, what does that say? That tells you the groove is that consistent of a dimension but not how far up. It doesn't say that the twist rate is consistent. Chatter marks? All of this affects lead performance.

All,

I find it really strange how guys will look at things and sometimes it takes discussions like these to bring them out. They recognize that there is a difference between a Charter Arms and a Freedom Arms anthough they are still machined on the same equipment. Or a difference between a Parker A grade and an 870 Express. But if a guy says that he trues up an action that means he did and it is. There are ways to chamber that can be done in 30 minutes or 2 days. But to say it makes no difference because it all looks the same and results in the same performance is incorrect. Or in essence to say that gas cutting is bad in the throat but it doesn't matter up the bore? What? Because that is exactly what we are talking about here.


Joe,

I never talked to a guy in my life that wanted re-barreled that said, please, I have layed awake at night dreaming that when you have done your best, that it will shoot like a Mil-Surp. Made me laugh.

[Bullshop]

Scrounger
Wasn't offering a theory just addmiting an inability to comprehend.
BIC/BS

[Jumptrap]

Jumptrap,

Let's go over and sit in the corner and put down a few cold ones. In the mornin we'll have some biscuits and gravey and then we'll start on tuning that JD up,
Joe

Hehe, too funny! I'll go for the biscuits and gravy any day.

I had 3 rifles built with those A&B barrels and have never shot any of them..much. But, the pipefitter told me they looked as good as any he ever looked at internally. But, the proof is in the pudding....time will tell. Like Felix said........a good barrel is a good barrel. Dimensional tolerances are a great step in the right direction, but no guarantee of performance. I've shot some guns that absolutely should not have done so well....but they did just the same. Why? damned if I know. A Chink in Factory 26 can turn out a superior barrel and it may be by accident....but if he does, he does. I've got Douglass barrels that shoot okay but no better than most factory tubes. For what I do, most any will suffice. The application of BR technique to a dirt clod blaster is stupidity in my opinion. Hell, when i was a boy....all we had were .22 single shots and we never questioned who made the barrels or how....but they shot really good...really hurt when somebody outshot you with your own gun! By and large the old remingtons did the best.....but I'll bet my last nickel they never seen an air gauge or anything else. You learn to shoot what you have. I have an old stevens model 15 single shot....a real cheapo..and no, it won't hold a candle to my Anschutz 54....but, I've lost count of the dead critters that gun has accounted for...more than the Anschutz by far.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

You said this: Great. Shaw has a place and a market niche in this world. And for jacketed we even recommend them to some folks. That's why they are still in business.

Damn, ya'll a right nice fellow to keep E.R. Shaw in business. I just gotta shake your hand, especially for a fellow that thinks their product is **** compared to the likes of Douglas, Shilen, Hart, and some of those fancy European barrels.

You're dead wrong about Shaw barrels are too rough for lead without at least a thousand rounds of jacketed through them. When I first my my bastard 6.5 I didn't realize that you couldn't push the velocity envelope with that caliber, well at least not with the Swedes and their faster twist. So....I was shooting damn near 3 grand with lead and guess what? No leading!! But how would there be Bass...the barrel was shot out in less then 400 rounds in that batch of 1000 jacketed I was shooting through it to smooth OUT the rifling. Sure smoothed it out alrighty.

You're in over your head and Jumptraps John Deere isn't even going to pull you out. Now if Jump had to spread you his John Deere sure does have a niffly manure spreader that can be hooked up to it.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Scrounger
Wasn't offering a theory just addmiting an inability to comprehend.
BIC/BS

Dan,

This converstaion is not meant to convince anyone of anything. Only to get people to think.

What about a gain twist? How fast was Mr Pope running? Was his pressure increasing as the twist rate changed or was it dropping? If it is dropping, then a seal doesn't have to be as strong and maybe drive grip is more important to soft lead. When twist rate increases the rifling is digging into new metal as it rotates the bullet faster. Low rifling height space can be filled with bore fouling as the bullet procedes ahead to maintain a weak seal? Who knows for sure. The gain twist was an idea long before Mr Pope and basically went no where at a time lead was the game. That could be for several reasons, none of which have anything to do with actual performance.

Take a bullet that you have recovered and look at the imprint. That angle is cut by a certain twist rate. Now look at a slower twist rate if you have one. Picture in your mind what over laying those two would look like if the rate varried. Then think about these questions. What is going to fill that space? What would that do to gas seal, bullet balance, aerodynamics, and could you get muzzle leading? Instead of 6 lands driving in unison, you may only have 5. Or 4. What would that do to rotational force ability of a certain hardness level? How would that limit your velocity potential with a particular hardness mix? Are you still going to get 2" groups or 2 feet?

To me, twist rate consistency for lead is as or more important as any other dimension because you can't obturate to fill that space uniformly. Once stripped, your done. Especially when you want more pressure to go faster. Or faster, softer. And why some guns can .... and some can't no matter what tricks you employ.

[StarMetal]

Art

The main intention of gain twist rifling, as I understand it, is to gentley start the bullet moving then speed it's spin up as it travels further down the barrel. There's something about it becoming because of some of the long lead bullets that needed a faster twist. I don't see how there would be a better seal as it the bullet tranverses from the slow twist to the faster twist because the rifling size stays the same and only the twist rate changes. Also the farther the bullet is down the barrel the less the pressure becomes.

Bass

Buttons for rifling are both pulled and pushed, they all aren't necessarily pulled through a bore. How about this: Dan Lilja's barrels are button-rifled; he says the smooth interior finish and uniform depth of the grooves give this method an accuracy edge. Hmmmmmmmm another A&B and Shaw *** barrel, damn, and I thought they were good barrels.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

You said this: Great. Shaw has a place and a market niche in this world. And for jacketed we even recommend them to some folks. That's why they are still in business.

You're in over your head and Jumptraps John Deere isn't even going to pull you out. Now if Jump had to spread you his John Deere sure does have a niffly manure spreader that can be hooked up to it.

Joe

Joe,

I am in over my head? Could be! Thanks for being concerned.

But I'll bet that if you reread my posts you are going to feel bad for telling me my opinion is ignorance based. But so what, a lot of people make decisions all the time in life that are ignorance based. Why can't I be one?

Rougher? Yes, I said that. But rougher is an accurate term for a total description of less overall precision and not just groove finish that you can see. Did I ever say that has any of that affects or guarantees jacketed accuracy? Does a little blow by hurt jacketed? Are most accuracy catagories dominated by Shaw barrels? Are any? For re-barreling, if you won a free barreling job with the barrel of your choice would the Shaw be your first choice if dollars were unlimited or would you get down on your knees and beg for a Savage take off?

Cut me a break. They fill a niche. So did the Yugo. Was it reliable? Some people probably got there money's worth. Too many others didn't.

[StarMetal]

Bass

Just about everything we buy today "fills a purpose". Do you drive a luxury car? Do you live in over a $800,000 home? Do you own a Leer Jet? Is your motorcycle a cafe racer Ducati? Do you own a John Deere tractor (hey, how'd that get in there har har har). Do NASCAR sponcers run regular Chevy, Ford, Chryler..and all the other crap out ..cars on the race circuit? No huh? Why don't we drive NASCAR cars for everyday commutes? Not suitable for the purpose huh? They fill a narrow market huh? How many of us here on this forum shoot professional cast bullet competition? Not alot I bet. If your bank gave you a free no limit ceiling to buy whatever car you wanted what would you get. That's a stupid question asking me if I would put a Shaw barrel on my rifle if I had a free gunsmith pass. How about this. Would I got to war with a rifle that had a Shaw barrel on it? YES I noticed you didn't touch this statement: Dan Lilja's barrels are button-rifled; he says the smooth interior finish and uniform depth of the grooves give this method an accuracy edge. Why not?

Joe
P.S. Yes you can be ignorant, we all can..and I didn't insinuate that John. Just discussing and making people think. Did I make you think? Are they bad thoughts about me? hehehehe

[Oldfeller]

Can you have some coffee and molasses with your buscuit, or is that too likely to pick up some of the loose sand that's a flying around in this thread?

==========================================

Jump, I'm ashamed of you and Ray, just sitting on the edge of the sandbox like that permitting Bass & Joe to have all the fun all by their lonesomes.

Of course, you could be considered to be cheerleading, which is a good thing depending on if somebody can actually figure out which side you are on.

=========================================

Now, I am on the side that button rifling CAN be good rifling if it is the style that pulls both the groove bottoms and the land tops into contact with the button form. These types of button forms share some simularities with pull broaches except they really do not cut, they form by several stages.

Lets see, we got simple button (groove bottoms or bore wall diameter only) which can leave irregular land heights and the original as-reamed surface finish on top of them lands which can be kinda rough. These barrels might be undesirable unless fire-lapped.

(hand lapping is a joke -- I've tried to do it and it don't doooooo dooooodley unless you want to spend weeks a doing it.

..... GOOD RIFLING ....

We got complex form draw button forming, which is better.

We got pull broached, which can be real crude or real nice (depending on who did the broach and how it is used).

We got hook riflled (single hook, indexed) which is expensive and pricey (Bass food)

We got hammer forged over a mandrel (Steyr uses it)

We got hydraulic formed over a mandrel (most commercial rifles use it now)

Then we got polygonal formed, generally hydraulic over a mandrel

And then we got the stuff that can hit a target at the size of your headbone fired at 3 miles out from the barrel of a top secret smooth bored military McMillian specialty "rifle" -- one which uses an articulated mobile nose cone section on the bullet which cocking over to one side to go a seeking out an infared laser dot which is being shined right between your eyes by somebody what has snuck up much much closer to you.

Yup, the worlds most accurate long distance rifles don't even have rifling in them any more.

Sheeeeeit boys, the most powerful projectile guns in the world now-a-days don't even got a barrel anymore.

=============================================

Hey Joe, if you ain't gonna use that bucket full of sand on Bass, pass her over here to me -- I wanna build me a sandcastle.

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

HAMMER FORGE!!!!! POUND ON A BARREL!!!!!!! DAMN!!! Bass...you hear that?? My God!!!! Okay everyone...biscuits and gravey at Joe's farm one week from now while I go over the finer points of button rifling to you all, or as Sundog would say, all ya'll.

No it's my sand and it's special. It's outta the sand bag I shoot my one ragged hole groups with. Go play with Jump and his tractor.

Joe

[Bullshop]

This is a great thread, I love it!
BIC/BS

[carpetman]

The original question was should I spend $90 for a Shaw or $130 for a Douglas? If this is a question of $90 for a Timex or $130 for a Seiko--I'd say Seiko. If it were question of $90 for Timex or $17,000 for a Rolex,I'd say get the Timex. I know someone has a Timex that keeps excellent time. But I have Seiko that still keeps excellent time and I've used it about 25 years---so I would spend a little more to get one over a Timex. Same is true of a whole lot of things. I can buy a Riceomatic ratchet that will turn a socket or I can buy a Proto(sadly today's Proto is Riceomatic) or even a Snap On. Now this gain twist---is that where the idea for rappers to spin a record back and forth came from? Maybe this thread is like the gasoline powered bee. They fill up by licking the drops of gas that get spilled. There was one that was low on fuel and went by one station,then went by a second station and was dangerously low on fuel when he fueled up at the the third station. His friends asked why? Well he said.(It was a talking bee to boot). The first station was A Texaco. The second one was Exxon and the third one was an Esso. That proves there is an Esso bee in most every crowd.

[Willbird]

I'd throw down and git the gooder bbl............


Bill

[waksupi]

I remember reading that Pope and his cronys never did decide wheter the gain twist was any better than straight twist.

[StarMetal]

What is a $130 Douglas, one of their rejects? I can't believe a Douglas that cheap is any better then a Shaw. I'm not saying Douglas isn't better then Shaw, I'm saying I can't see how they can sell a world match rifle barrel for that price.

Could it be that $130 Douglas must be like Chevy's top car use to be the Impala and then you could buy a cheaper Impala (basically as the models were the same car, just different trim and accessories) like a Biscayne and that's what the $130 Douglas is...a biscayne? Now if Chevy said I could have a Corvette for $40 more you better believe that's what I'd take too.

Joe

[Jumptrap]

I ain't gettin' into this pissing contest....mines a smoothbore and i hit the seat all too often. Of course that could be related to being a snubnose as well!

But, what difference does it make how them spirals are made? I've been to Douglas' place and watched them make barrels....ho-hum. Not much different than touring a body shop in my estimation. But, they turn out a decent product. I can only imagine that most of pipe shops are the same. Seems I recall reading that remington turns out a barrel in a couple of minutes......I've had some dandies from them. Most of the AR barrels are broached...they work well enough. Most folks own at least one old mil-surp and claim pretty decent results.....you think for a minute those barrels got any special treatment? HAR!

Even barrels from the big names fail to produce...ask Felix, he was a BR man. Those guys change barrels like racers do pistons...some shoot and some just won't.

Throwing money at something doesn't promise a fix. granted, you'd think those extra dollars were buying something and probably they do. I'd bet a $25 remongton take off would satisfy 99% of us for what we do.

[Oldfeller]

Now Joe, ya done gone and invited everybody to come visit you again.

Fall is coming up and I got some time off around the third week of October. Now, both you and Jump live sorta kinda close to each other so maybe we could organize us a little shoot at one or the other of your farms.

Yo, Jumptrap -- is your invite still open to come to your place for a wee little small friendly day shoot? Yours or Joe's, it don't matter.

Carpetbee, Joe wants to show us all some Starmetal-style single ragged hole group shooting and he's planning on saving all the sand that comes out of the single ragged hole in the target sandbag just for you .....

(to eat one grain at a time in public).

Joe needs him some witnesses and the Carolina/Tennessee mountains sure are pretty in the fall time.

What do you say guys?

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

Now wait a dang dog gone burn minute Jump. Haven't you ever stood on a bridge with your pals and had a pissing contest. Sure you have. Now step up, unzip, and whoop it out...err I mean pluck it out in your case. har har har On those milsurp barrels shooting good, well those are circumsized rifling, that is they are cut. That's the kind of rifling Bass likes, circumsized. He don't like noboby pullin or pushin a button through his tube...ouch oh man!

Joe