Adams & Bennet bbls

[felix]

Joe, whom did you talk with at Shilen. John? Must be a new guy. I met Ed Shilen back in the old days about when Allen Hall was working with him. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I must have said John because that's Bass's first nameand Bass and I have been posting alot in the thread. I can't recall who I talked to now. It was a Shilen tho cause I asked who I was speaking too.

Joe

[lovedogs]

If any of you have read my comments addressing the comments on H&R Handi-Rifles you know I have a .45-70 Buffalo Classic that shoots GREAT. It doesn't lead. It's GREAT! How can anyone put together such a reasonably priced rifle with such a good barrel?

I've also got a custom made .25-06 with a Shilen bbl. The bbl. cost more than the whole H&R rifle. The H&R was just over $300. The custom rifle is a $3000 jewel. They are both great shooters. The .25 shoots groups of just over 1/4 inch. The .45 shoots cast lead into about 3/4 inch.... darn good. I know guys with $6000 custom Sharps that don't shoot as well.

Guess what I'm saying is that I'm not sure anyone has it all figured out. I also have an ancient 788 that was cheap, too, and it shoots a ragged hole. Go figure. I think a "quality" bbl. is the best assurance, but that's not always the case. Like the man said, "You pays your money and you takes your chances". If it shoots... great. If'n it don't, well, too bad. Better luck next time.

[Frank46]

Speaking about rifling height. Does anyone make barrells with mauser type rifling?. With the skinny lands and huge grooves it would seem to me that the mauser type rifling would offer a better grip and guidance for cast bullets. Just curious. Frank

[Ricochet]

Bass, I don't understand why you say button rifling produces tool marks across the rifling. As I understand it, the button is pulled or pushed down the bored and reamed barrel and swages the grooves out. Any marks produced by that should follow the path of the button down the bore. It would seem to me that it would smooth out the existing tool marks from boring and reaming.

[versifier]

Ricochet,
The perpendicular tool marks are not caused by the button, but are left from the drilling and reaming operations. The button can and does smooth them somewhat, but reaming is a step where many barrel makers choose to cut corners, and the button can only do so much. If you follow back this thread, you will find an earlier posting of mine on page four that explains it in much greater detail.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I don't understand why you say button rifling produces tool marks across the rifling. As I understand it, the button is pulled or pushed down the bored and reamed barrel and swages the grooves out. Any marks produced by that should follow the path of the button down the bore. It would seem to me that it would smooth out the existing tool marks from boring and reaming.

Ricochet,

Versifier is correct that a lot of the tool marks on the lands that are perpendicular to the bore are from the reaming process. And you are correct that some are smoothed out. But they are in the grooves too. The same bore scope will show you that.

If the steel offers a lot of resistance in one spot, the button can almost chatter or skip. The barrel can and will stretch unevenly like taffy and to some degree turn the button making the bore larger at that point. Behind the button where it stretched, the bore diameter will be smaller. When it stretches, the rate of twist changes on the rifling and so does rifling height and the space between the rifling until it comes back to a norm. Buttoning also can require the bore to be straightened after the process is finished. Lilja used to speak of this, I don't know if it is still up on their site. That is why stainless makes the best barrels with the buttoning process. Softer steel offers less resistance and less stress induced into the steel. But even they will have twist rate variances that must be fired out. And because the steel is softer, it cleans up (breaks in) quicker. But that clean up comes from wear, so they wear faster too.

Because of this thread, I did rifling height and bore condition testing sense Christmas starting with a virgin barrel. The results were posted up under the cast bullet section under Pressure and Hardness I believe. Remember, the argument here is not "accuracy" alone, but accuracy with lead. I believe that cast bullet performance can approach that of jacketed at jacketed velocities with the right barrels. I have satisfied myself that rifling height and dimensional "perfection" offer the best chances .... and the most options for accuracy with lead. If you can shoot lead slow or fast, soft or hard you will find many more combinations that work to acceptable levels than someone who is stuck in the old cast bullet range. The more loads that work, the better the chances one will work better than the others based on the harmonics of THAT barrel. If the best harmonics for THAT barrel is in the 2400-2800 fps range and you don't have the rifling height to get cast to that point, then you never know.