How do the adams & bennet barrels stack up against douglas bbls. Midway has the 35 cal rifle bbl for sale at about $90 versus about $130 for the douglas. Any pros or cons??.
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How do the adams & bennet barrels stack up against douglas bbls. Midway has the 35 cal rifle bbl for sale at about $90 versus about $130 for the douglas. Any pros or cons??.
Frank,Originally Posted by Frank46
This has been hashed before. The name is the biggest component. Then steel quality. A more fair question should be is there a $40 difference in the quality. If I were buying it .... yes.
But for $40 more I would buy a Shilean over the Douglas. 8, lead driving, lands compared to 6.
Does that mean you can't get a good A&B? No. But I like better odds.
I most definitely agree with you Bass, when you consider the expenses incurred in the chambering and installation as well as the likelyhood of getting a good shooter the price difference is well worth it. Lots of guys rave about ER Shaw barrels - you and I live close enough to drive there without much problem - that thought has never crossed my mind. Give me a Hart an Obeyermeyer or a Shilen any day. I really wouldn't throw stones at a Douglas either!
Herb
I put a Shaw barrel on my custom 260 Rem Arisaka. It shoots most all condoms under 3/4 inch at 100 meters. I've got one of 45 2.1's cast bullets shooting into an inch. Anyone can make a good barrel, it's whether they want to take the time, good steel, and good machinery to do it.
Joe
Herb,
Yes, you are correct. The other fees involved make the barrel a minor part of the cost. I did not want anyone to presume that I think there is anything wrong with Douglass at all. Nope. It's just that for .004 tall rifling, 8 have more drive area than 6.
And ER Shaw makes some good barrels. As good as a good one is though, a bad one will be bad. Usually they have a very rough finish. Too rough for lead without 1000 rounds of jacketed. But you can't argue with their prices.
Bass,
When's the last time you bought or looked at a Shaw barrel? You're wrong about them being rough. As good and smooth bore as I've seen on just about anything. Shaw had a bad reputation long ago for rough barrels. They aren't making them the same way anymore. They are button rifled and you really don't get a rough barrel that ways as with cut rifling. My bore on my 260 looked like glass or chrome, smooth as could be and when I patched it the patch glided through like it was silk.
I'm not sticking up for them, but unless you have had a recent barrel I wouldn't be bad mouthing them.
Joe
Joe,
ER Shaw is in Bridgeville. That's 12 miles up the road from me. I know how they make the barrels. I know how they thread them. I know how they chamber them. And ..... I know what they look like inside. But you really need a bore scope to look inside. And you need to send some barrels off to labs to test things like twist rate and dimensional consistency and such. They don't report very well. They can't for how they crank them out and sell so cheap.
Button rifling is cheapest rifling method and THE WORST for lead because the tool marks are always perpendicular to the bore because of the button. The tool marks act like a file unless smoothed with jacketed or some form of lapping. Cut rifled is always parallel with the bore. Cut rifling is superior for lead. But cut rifled barrels are twice the price of buttoned too because they take much longer to make and the operator has to have more knowledge to operate the equipment.
Read my post again. I never said that they made a bad barrel. But the percentage of ones that don't shoot .... or wouldn't .... be good for lead because of dimensional abnormalities without extensive shooting with jacketed is higher than other makers. Sorry, thats my experience.
This is .... a lead board. So my recommendations are based on such.
Last edited by Bass Ackward; 08-10-2005 at 05:52 PM.
I have to agree on the button rifled barrels. A good one can be fine, but a bad one will be as bad or worse than a poorly cut rifles barrel. The only thing that can, not will, but can be worse is the mandrel formed barrels if they have loose spots. Now that will drive you crazy!
Hit the submit button somehow. Sorry.
I was going to say that I read Harry Popes description of how he cut a barrel. He said that when he pulled the cutter through the only evidence of the cutter having passed the first time was that the cutting oil was discolored. He figured he wa cutting .0005-8 per pass. And I counted the zeroes. Thats what he said. You won't get that now. Too expensive. Thats where the tool marks come from, taking too deep a cut. But that keeps them in business.
I myself have always liked Hart bbls, but Brownells has Shilen in stock and the most accurate rifle I have chambered yet is in 22-250AI and it is a Shilen stainless 1-14 bbl, has shot some groups in the .2's and that in a hunter BR stock.
Cut rifling from what I hear is quite difficult to do right, and consistantly do right, not sure how many BR matches are won with cut rifled bbls.....lots of high power matches are tho.
Bill
Both ends WHAT a player
Oh Christ John!, now we're looking at the bores under a 100,000x electron microscope, sending the barrels off to the top scientific labs around the world to each major country. I don't care if you sleep with E.R.Shaw. Living 12 miles away doesn't mean **** to me. I suppose you're over there so much they have a coffee cup with your name on it. They aren't the same the company they use to be. They are in some big arms manufacturing thing now, really turning out the products. Now when I say button rifling is fairly smooth I guess I'll have to relate to an electron microscope. Come on John, this is gettig to be rocket science ********. We're milsurp cast shooters, antique arms cast shooters, hunting revolver cast shooters, run of the mil semi-auto pistol cast shooters. Yeah of course if someone is REAL competive in the competive games they are going to buy the best gun they can get. This is all suppose to be just fun. For the average person wacking out a not enough average wage, or on retirement, can afford the top smiths in the country nor the top barrels from around the world. There is quite a difference in price, not just a few bucks, between E.R. Shaw and Douglas, Shilen, and Hart and that doesn't include the even better more expensive barrels. Now you tell me, I wanted a gun built on the Jap Type 38 Arisaka action. I didn't want to put no $300 dollars in the barrel alone. I only wanted a rifle that would shoot half decent enough groups at 100 meters and for deer hunting. Well I got that from Shaw. Like I said it cuts 3/4 inch groups with most all the major bullet makers and so far 1 inch groups with 45 2.1's cast bullets. Shaw trued the face of the receiver, cut the barrel lenght to what I wanted, bead blasted it, satin blued it, polished the bolt and trigger to bright metal, and installed a new scope friendly bolt handle for under $300 bucks easy. I was impressed with I saw it. I put it in a classic Boyd walnut stock. The rifle has made me as happy as if it would have been a Douglas, Shilen, or Hart barrel.
I'll tell you another thing. It's damn hard for one of the top barrel makers to make a barrel to out shoot Remington's or Savages, considering that those two manufacturers make production line barrels. Yeah, they have had their ups and downs, but Rem and Savage are pretty damn consistant on their barrels. I've seen some really amazing groups from both. We're not talking about how they put the rifle together, we're just talking their barrels.
Joe
MROliver 77 had an arisaka like that, we used a $99.00 shilen unturned blank from Brownells, thay have went up to like $116.00 last time I looked. worked great. It is probably the only barrel block bedded arisaka with an old Hart 3 piece BR stock in henry County Ohio chambered in 7.62x39
Bill
Both ends WHAT a player
JOE.....shhhh, Joe! c'mon back over here and sit down, it's okay, calm down...take your medicine. Better? Ah, much better now. I'll see to it you get extra mustard for your biscuits and a fresh housecoat. how's that? Just don't pay so much attention to John...he lost his favorite pocket protector last night. We must all try to be happy here.
Joe
I gotta go with you on this one. If you remember the group project thread about my old Savage single shot action, and that I got an A&B barrel on a Midway sell out for $90.00. Well I had doubts but it turned out to be a good one. Like you said to my unmagnified eye it looks smooth and shiney. I didn't do any break in whatever and it shoots fine with no leading. Shure I woulda liked to have a big name barrel but as it is I waited a long time to afford this one. If I had decieded to narrow the odds the old Savage would still be in the corner and I would still be shakeing my head when ever I walked by. Kinda like Lee products, shure its nice to have the best equipment but if it wasn't for Lee many people wouldn't be casting or loading.
BIC/BS
Joe,
I am so glad that you have no emotional attachment here. Because if you did, it would ruin your ability to comprehend.
Buttons are pulled through steel. Softer steels are easier than hard. But softer steel can stretch if a harder spot is encountered. Picture pulling taffy. What happens is that if you had a 10 twist barrel, it has a certain angle to the lands. At the stretched part the angle changes and maybe you have a 11" twist angle at that point. When the button clears that area, the angle goes back to the 10" twist angle.
When a cast bullet encounters this spot, the rifling widens the track in the bullet and gas starts escaping up side of the bullet. A detriment to cast. The barrel can not be lapped to correct for this. When jacketed is shot, that portion where the angle is changed will wear away eventually. The rifling will always be thinner in this area and leakage will always occur unless the bullet is heavy enough (long enough) that the front part of the bullet seals again before back part breaks it seal. If this occurs out torwards the muzzle the other rifling have to pick up the drive slack. If the bullet is hard enough to handle it. This is another reason you have the old time cast line, "Always shoot the heavier bullets per caliber."
The larger companies screen for this. In truth, they still slip by, but at a reduced rate. Even when you hear a barrel is air guaged, this can be misleading. If no standard is mentioned, it only means it was air guaged. The rifling can be shorter than .004 and often is. One can be lower than the others if the button only caught on one side. As the button gets to the end of the barrel, the weight of the rod pulls down on the button changing the dimensions of the bore always to the large side. Some manufacturers cut this off. But that means you need a longer more expensive blank. Sometimes the wrong end gets identified for the direction the button was pulled through. I had a Savage barrel like that. And I suspect in a Remington 30-06 that took 500 rounds of jacketed to smooth up that would blow primers with a cast bullet at 34,000 psi.
The bigger companies generally compensate for the most of these possibile defects. That's what you get, because that's what you pay for. That's what the screening process identifies, that's what you take your chances on. Shilean still recommends that at LEAST 2" be cut off their barrels so you order accordingly. All of these things will be a detriment to cast long before seen with jacketed. It costs the same amount of time and labor to barrel up an action. The only monitary difference is the price of the tube. Ya spins the wheel, ya takes yer chances.
We just screwed off a Shilean two days ago that is going back for evaluation. Won't hold 2" with factory ammo. If credit is not given, we eat that barrel. Happens a few times a year. Two days barreling that up, that are gone out the window. No compensation. So don't tell me I don't understand what I am talking about? If all you expect is something to exit the barrel when a round is set off, then the world is full of barrel makers and options for you. But common sence would also dictate that if the is your standard, buy the Savage or Mauser for $270 and get the stock for free. Why even go the re-barrel route?
I just got my barreled action back from Shaw a few weeks ago. I had the original Model 70 Super Grade 300 WM rebarreled to 375H&H. I haven't shot it yet as I'm in the middle of stock work, but the bore is very smooth. It is heads and tails better than a stock Rem. or Win. bore and almost comparable to my Bulberry 338 Encore barrel which is hand lapped. That said, the proof will be in the actual shooting in a couple of weeks.
I ended up paying $318 for the barrel, chambering and test firing, squaring the bolt face, matte blue finishing, and shipping. Shaw even reblued all of the hardware including the rings and mounts at no added cost. All of the work and barrel cost would have added up to $650 to $750 if I had went with a big name barrel. Since this rifle is going to be used for hunting, I was willing to take a chance on Shaw. I will eventually try cast in this rifle, but plan to just use jacketed for the time being.
Bass Ackwards---I think I am reading you correctly in that if it says air guaged,but doesnt say to what specs then it's an ambiguous statement. How often you see Genuine Top Grain leather stamped on articles? Sounds impressive. Must be high quality good stuff. The side of the animal the hair grew on is grain side (other side flesh side),the grain side can have a certain amount of corrections(sanding etc)and still be top grain. About all "Genuine top grain leather" really means is that the article is not suede. Not an ounce of bearing on quality. Has nothing to do with how it was tanned either--vegetable tanned or oil tanned etc.
A barrel either shoots or it doesn't. It's the call of the owner. And, it does indeed depend on the nature of the sport on how accurate a gun has to be. For example, offhand beer cans at 80-100 yards is plenty accurate enough for a lever gun barrel. ... felix
felix
Jumptrap,
You're new John Deere is a *** because the cylinders weren't made and bored by Shilen, Douglas, Hart or some other big name. Sorry pardner. You may notice that when you're cut cast grass fields that bore is alittle rough and you may not be getting as much mileage out of that oh so expensive diesel fuel. Did JD tell you if those cylinders were air gauged?
Let's go over and sit in the corner and put down a few cold ones. In the mornin we'll have some biscuits and gravey and then we'll start on tuning that JD up, pillar bedding, free float the cylinder..oh yeah make sure the throats are right. Hey you got an electron microscope? Wanta make sure we hone those cylinders smooth.
Joe
Bass Akward
Admittedly I am a simple minded man and my depth of understanding is a scratch on the surface so I am having trouble with this. Your explaination of the changing twist and consiquent gas leakage sounded good until I started thinking about one of my most favorite names in cast boolit shooting history, Mr. Harry Pope. Everyone knows the history and that old Harry was a master, but some may not know that some of his best barrels were gain twist. With a gain twist there will be the same conditions you described for changing rifling pitch but there was apparently no gas leakage in Pope barrels. Perhaps this had something to do with the shallow groove (micro groove) rifling he used, or rounded bottom or rachet/angled bottom grooves. I dont know, as I said I cant fatham it all but as always I end up thinking that someones neatly packaged explanation doesn't tell the whole story of what is happening. No offence intended here but I think we will end up the way we did with our long ago lube discussion that there are still some blanks in the story to be filled in.
BIC/Friend/BS
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