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Thread: Paper Patch Advice.

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Post Paper Patch Advice.

    I have been meaning to give paper patched boolit shooting a whirl for some time and finally ordered 50 pre patched 450gr 45-70 boolits from Bullshop. I correctly figured that he could put the diapers on those pretty boolits waaay better than me and my ten thumbs. They arrived yesterday and look fine, but now I gotta load em and figure those of you that have experience with these might have some wisdom to pass along.

    I'm shooting black powder only, so have to figure on a lube cookie. Question is how thick to make the cookie? How bad a problem is lube migration past the bottom wad into the charge? Or is it a problem at all?

    SS
    NRA Life Member Since 1981



    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

    II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."

    Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharpsShooter View Post
    I have been meaning to give paper patched boolit shooting a whirl for some time and finally ordered 50 pre patched 450gr 45-70 boolits from Bullshop. I correctly figured that he could put the diapers on those pretty boolits waaay better than me and my ten thumbs. They arrived yesterday and look fine, but now I gotta load em and figure those of you that have experience with these might have some wisdom to pass along.

    I'm shooting black powder only, so have to figure on a lube cookie. Question is how thick to make the cookie? How bad a problem is lube migration past the bottom wad into the charge? Or is it a problem at all?

    SS
    For an over powder wad to prevent lube migration to the powder I cut wads from styrofoam picnic plates. Compress the powder first then seat the wad. This will form a barier between powder and lube.
    For the lube wad I use a press mounted extruder sold by C. Sharps arms. It will extrude a continuous ribbon apx. 1/16" thick. Generaly one wad is enough but under hot dry conditions or from a big case with more powder than a 45/70 two wads may sometimes be needed. The boolit base is protected by the patch paper.
    The whole smeal will be blown a couple feet in front of the barrel in shreds. You will clearly see land groove marks on the peaces of paper.
    I can send some extruded ribbon if you need some. Sorry I didnt think of it with your order.
    I think you will like that boolit. It is the only paper patch design I know of that is intended for conventional SAAMI throating and not paper patch throating.
    The way I patch there is already a lube wad in place at the base and a thin film of lube over the patch.
    It has been a very accurate design from several of my rifles and I have used it to take mule deer, caribou, moose, and grizzley bear. Even had an outing with B00 in a dog town once upon a time. Any dogs standing on a mound within 200 yards were in big trouble.
    BIC/BS

  3. #3
    Boolit Master powderburnerr's Avatar
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    sharpsshooter,
    I put a wad on the powder and use an eyedropper to put in melted lube .I got the dropper at a pharmacy it is marked and I use .5 ml in each case . I seat my bullets 2 tenths in the case and with pp bullets find a cleaner and faster burn if the powder is dumped rather than dropped through a tube. in my 110 I use 90 gns of kik and 480s with my 565s I use 100 to 110 of kik or 1F goex. the heavier bullet works a lot better with the heavier charges . if you find paper rings in the chamber the case is too short or they are bumping up to fast . if so use a larger powder granulation. I have tried the wads over ,under . and sandwiching the lube . my best results came from a sandwich of 30 wad grease cookie 30 wad .

    the new express works as well as kik and may shoot a little tighter it needs compression where the kik doesnt . the kikis also very clean ...Dean
    Last edited by powderburnerr; 12-19-2006 at 11:18 PM.
    lover of 74 sharps
    MYWEIGH scale merchant
    " i'll tell the story 10 different ways before I'll lie to you."

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    I cut a over powder wad from coffee can lids. I seat that and then I put a piece of sheet bees wax the kind you buy from a craft store which is waffle stamped and you roll it up around a wick and make a candle. I just put a sheet across the top and push my thumb over it to stamp it out. I take my paper patched bullets and tumble them in a bit of lee liquid alox. a light coat. I thumb seat them. I compress the power charge before I insert card and wax cookie. these cases are unsized. One ragged hole.... I love it. Best of luck. JB
    member cast boolits since 2/01/04 former shooters member

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    Guys,
    Thanks for the advice. I've been reading what I can find here and out on the net as well. A friend of mine is bringing me Paul Matthews book this weekend.

    Dan,

    I did not think of the ribbon lube when I placed the order. I'll cobb something together as an extruder for the time being.

    SS
    NRA Life Member Since 1981



    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

    II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."

    Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    Just wanted to add, Bullshops boolits are very decent quality. I have to correct my earlier post stating these boolits were 450gr. My mistake. They are 514gr with less than .5 grain with the patch. The diameter control is something too. The 10 boolit sample measure .4595 with no difference across the board. None, Nada, Zip, Zilch. I'll report back my shooting results with them soon.


    SS
    NRA Life Member Since 1981



    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

    II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."

    Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #7
    Boolit Bub Christian for Israel's Avatar
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    anybody ever try paper patch with modern powder? i've been wanting to cobble together some patched boolits for my 8mm mauser. my aim is to minimize leading of the barrel while shooting cast .312's, with the patch increasing the diameter to the proper .323, at fairly high velocities (2500fps +/-).

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Welcome to the board!!!

    Paul Matthews in his book "Forty Years with the 45-70" discusses using White powder with the paper patched boolit with good results. It can and has been done on the smaller calibers also. He was working in the 1900-2000fps range using pure lead boolits patched to proper diameter.


    SS
    NRA Life Member Since 1981



    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

    II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."

    Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #9
    Boolit Bub Christian for Israel's Avatar
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    thanks for the welcome and the info. would you suggest a smooth sided boolit mold or do you think it would be possible to use one with lube grooves?

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    Paul Matthews spoke of using both, but the smooth sided was the better choice. I just tested a 514gr smooth sided paper patch boolit in my 1895 using smokeless and it shot well for a first attempt, putting 3 shots into a 1.5" group at 50-yds. The gun will do much better than that with it's pet load, but that did show potential. I was running them 1500+fps and plan on reducing that to around 1200-1300fps as the recoil was real entertainment for the guys watching me shoot.

    If you use a grooved boolit, remember you will have to size it down a good bit to allow for patch thickness



    SS
    NRA Life Member Since 1981



    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

    II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."

    Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #11
    Boolit Bub Christian for Israel's Avatar
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    remember, i'm starting with a .312 cast boolit and hoping the patch will increase it up to the needed .323.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Yep that is true. Slipped my mind. Just curious...have you tried the Lee 8mm Max boolit. It is a 250gr gas check design with a .322 ish diameter nose that works well in many Mausers, including mine. I'm not trying to disuade you from the paper patch as it is a interesting way to go.

    SS
    NRA Life Member Since 1981



    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

    II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."

    Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  13. #13
    Boolit Bub Christian for Israel's Avatar
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    i'm considering casting a regular .323 but i'm concerned about excessive leading of the barrel. i figured patching would be similar to using a jacketed bullet and reduce fouling.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian for Israel View Post
    i'm considering casting a regular .323 but i'm concerned about excessive leading of the barrel. i figured patching would be similar to using a jacketed bullet and reduce fouling.
    Given reasonable bore condition, a lead boolit will not lead if

    1. Consideration is given to proper fit to throat and bore diameter.
    2. Proper lube is used in relation to pressures developed
    3. Alloy mixture is adjusted in relation to both pressures developed and intended usage

    All the above may sound like a lot of work, but it is not. I would, in your case, start with a gas check design of .324 diameter, in the velocity range of 1600fps and work up to whatever you feel is required and SAFE for your plinking, target shooting or hunting needs. The paper patch can and does prevent leading according to my reading and some of my recent shooting proves that out, but it still requires proper fit to achieve those results.

    SS
    NRA Life Member Since 1981



    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

    II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."

    Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Sharpsshooter
    Not much time now but will get with you soon to help. This was from B00 my 1895 Marlin at 100 yards. B00 has about the same throat condition you describe in your rifle, with the patch being almost entirely in the case.
    Keep the faith!!!
    BIC/BS

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    Dan,

    I know it can be cured. I'm just not sure where I went wrong.

    ............For those of you just tuning in I am working up BPCR loads with the PP boolit. I did not have any luck with the BP loads, but did see promise with that faddish white powder........anyway, I refuse to post a bad shoot result with someone elses product before I have a chance to check out my method to see if I am the faulty product. I know Dan's stuff is good. I just need to figure out what went screwy.

    Here is the story............

    I loaded up 20 rounds of the paper patch boolits with Black Powder for my 75 Sharps and managed to escape to the range yesterday to test them. I also loaded up some smokeless loads for my 1895 with that boolit to try.

    I wish I could say the Sharps shot them well, but it sure did not. Groups at 50yds were wild and scattered. Often we could see the patch burning in the air at the 50yd line like some deviant fireworks. I had no problems with leading or fouling, but could not keep them on a paper plate at that short distance. I was so surprised that I broke out a box of my match ammo (457125 w/ 55gr of Goex Cartridge) to see if my shooting or the rifle had gone screwy. That was not the problem and I actually fired a 5 shot group at 100yd that measured .960" center to center. Sooooo, not the rifle, not the shooter. I am going to list my load below to see if you can figure out what is the problem. Keep in mind that my Sharps has almost no throat and as a result I have to seat the boolit down to where the patch almost disappears.

    1. Size and deprime as normal.
    2. Chamfer Case mouth and clean primer pocket.
    3. Expand case mouth
    4. Prime case.
    5. Measure charge (55gr) and drop tube 24" into case
    6. Compress charge to required depth.
    7. Insert .030" vegie wad and seat with wood dowel.
    8. Cut lube cookie from rolled ribbon with case mouth
    9. Seat boolit (boolit pushes the cookie down )
    10. Taper crimp just enough to remove bell of case mouth

    Presto...1 loaded case...whew! I can do it faster than I can type it. Anyway, that is how I do it...where is the problem? I can't see a flaw in my load method and it makes me wonder if the rifle throat is just too abrubt for this design...


    Your thoughts and wisdom are appreciated.......


    SS
    NRA Life Member Since 1981



    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington

    II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."

    Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  17. #17
    Boolit Master powderburnerr's Avatar
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    put another wad on the top of the lube ,you are getting blow by and if the patch is burning it isnt good .it also sounds like the patch is being torn . in the sharps try sizing a few down to 446 t o 447 after patching .. and cast with 40-1 or softer .. you will be mildly surprised. in my 45s I use a 440 wrapped to 446 and use 3/16 inch of lube sandwiched between two .30 wads . I seat the bullet 2 tenths in the case .
    .......Dean
    lover of 74 sharps
    MYWEIGH scale merchant
    " i'll tell the story 10 different ways before I'll lie to you."

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Something I dont understand is why are the patches going 50 yards? I have never had one go more than ten feet. What kind of barrel is it? Is it left hand twist? These boolits are patched for right hand twist so the leading edg of the paper can catch the air as it spins. Should tear the patch off at the muzzle and be blown not more than a few feet.
    Perhaps the 50gn charge is not producing enough pressure to press the patch to the bottom of the grooves to scor the patch. Normaly the patch should come apart at the land cuts.
    BIC/BS

  19. #19
    Boolit Master powderburnerr's Avatar
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    I think the grease was going past the bullet and sticking the patch to the bullet .
    my patches are found within 5 feet of the muzzle .I roll them left handed and get confetti .when I roll them right handed I get unwrapped patches with cuts in the patch to match the lands. the black burns so much faster than white powder the grease cookie was moving before the inertia of the bullet was overcome. ...Dean
    lover of 74 sharps
    MYWEIGH scale merchant
    " i'll tell the story 10 different ways before I'll lie to you."

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check