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Thread: Might be getting closer to the combination or else I got lucky...

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    2,796
    OK,
    I'll take a wild stab at it. I'd say if it produces a group shaped like that again with 5 or so shots, it probably indicates some "vertical". If that is classic vertical then that is both bad news and good news.

    First the bad news. Sometimes the cause of vertical is a tough one to isolate. It can be sight picture, inconsistent hold and recoil management, inconsistent front rest, variable ignition delay, improper barrel bedding- things like that. None of those things are really "bad" or very difficult to correct... just isolating the culprit is the hard part. In arms with relatively low muzzle velocity, very small inconsistencies like most of the ones mentioned above translate into magnified vertical dispersions on target simply because the bullet has more time in the bore.

    The good news- again after firing another 5 shots and if the horizontal stays relatively tight then it indicates the bore/minie/load all "want" to shoot. A rifle that doesn't want to shoot or if something is inherently wrong, then groups will usually be all over the place in a random pattern and may include a few yawing hits showing instability.
    Trust but verify the honeyguide

  2. #22
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Alabama
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    45
    Sounds reasonable to me and a few of the things you mention come to mind right off.
    First, the range I shoot at has a covered shooting pavilion with built-in benches and seats, unfortunately, when they designed this thing they were not doing it with 5 feet long rifles in mind.
    The support is between the second and rear barrel band, closer to the rear one really so any movement on my part is going to give a lot of vertical movement to the muzzle and the bench is too high to simply kneel down behind it.
    The barrel isn't bedded in the stock so I'm sure that's coming into play.
    And some basic marksmanship things I havn't done or I'm not doing right such as blacking the sights, anticipating the shot, inconsistent cheek weld and recoil management.
    I don't think I'm losing much gas pressure since it's got a fairly healthy shove to it and I'm pretty sure I'm flinching enough for it to be a factor, I suspect given more shooting time with this particular rifle I can train myself to relax while firing it.
    Sight picture is something of an issue now since my eyes aren't what they used to be but blacking the sights might help with that.
    The rear sight is far enough away that it isn't blurry but it doesn't have the definition I'd like for it to have and the rear sight notch leaves something to be desired, it's a wide notch.

    I think the rifle is happy with these minies since the pattern closed up by 80% or more at 25 yards over what it was doing.
    There's probably still a good bit of load developement left to do in regards to fine tuning the powder charge but it seems to like something in the neighborhood of 50 grains.

    I was able to hold about a 6 inch group at 50 yards and about 10 inches at 100 yards.
    Main thing that struck me was that I was able to consistently hit the target at 100 yards in a reasonably controlled manner, before, hitting the target at that range was a matter of luck.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Aug 2012
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    Solving odd group behavior has always been hard for me to pin down. Since bedding can help, rarely hurts and is fairly easy, it's one of the things to consider. If nothing else it can strengthen the stock.

    Yes, with these long rifles it can be hard finding a way to get a front rest out far enough on the forend to get a fair test on how that affects grouping.

    Here's some pics of a Parker Hale P-53 that was shooting some "odd" shaped groups. I decided to bed the tang/breech area and the areas on each side of the barrel bands. The idea was to even out the barrel pressure exerted by the tang and all bands. To conserve compound I only bedded the area 1-2" either side of the bands. I don't think it would hurt to bed the entire channel- and may be better. Seemed to work, in this case anyway, because the odd group wandering and stringing went away.
    Trust but verify the honeyguide

  4. #24
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    Alabama
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    What bedding compound are you using and is it difficult to use?
    I've never bedded a stock nor seen it done but if it'll help with this rifle I'll definately look into it since they went a bit too deep on the tang slot and I can't really tighten the tang screw down without it trying to lift the barrel slightly.

    If you haven't seen one, these Indian repro stocks are basically built to be used on all 3 marks of the P-53 Enfield as well as the P-1864 Snider/Enfield conversion and the purpose built Sniders.
    They all use a similar stock but they are not exactly the same so they have to leave enough material to fit all the rifles.
    The buttplate and endcap are already mounted, the barrel channel and tang slot are cut but the stock isn't inletted for the lock, barrel band springs, trigger assembly or trigger guard.
    The stocks are made of either teak or some sort of rosewood, it has a nice grain but it's hard to hand work, inletting the lock took quite some time and a lot of effort.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Should have some time tomorrow so will try to write up a short description about how I do it for muzzleloaders. It's really pretty straight forward and not difficult at all. Just requires a couple of general guidelines. Materials will include: some sort of slow set two part epoxy, paste wax (auto, Johnson's, etc.), a couple of basic wood working tools.
    Trust but verify the honeyguide

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Everyone does these a little different but this is what I do. First, I try to determine the best reason to do it then focus on that.

    I have used JB Weld with success on some bedding projects with modern rifles but prefer a compound that can be colored to better match the wood. I have used Micro Bed, Score High and Miles Gilbert. I know some use Marine Tex. Recently I've used some Miles Gilbert which seems to work well and is fairly handy.

    After deciding why and where, you need to slightly relieve and roughen the wood where the bedding will go. I mostly use a Dremel with small ball head cutters. All you want to do is "skin' some wood away and get down below any varnish or oil. A very small ball head cutter is ideal for putting a dimpled texture in the wood. Removing a thin layer and roughening helps the compound adhere to and bind to the wood. I prefer the Dremel for this, especially with the hard and odd woods. Some Asian and African woods are extremely hard as you have found. The power tool actually allows for a better job in these situations- at least for me.

    Once all prep is done, lay out all the tools needed. Once the compound is mixed there is not a lot of time to have to re-do or get something. There is time but not a bunch of it. Make up a cradle if you don't have one. Even a couple of slots in the open end of a cardboard box works well. I like to have a couple of paper towels handy along with some alcohol or acetone. There will be some excess ooze out so I have a couple of popsicle sticks that I've whittled into a small sharp edged knives-- very handy to remove the ooze. Use the barrel bands for tensioning the fore stock to the barrel and something like a couple of rubber bands for the breech/tang area.

    Next, the metal will have to be coated with some sort of release- you don't want to permanently glue the metal to the wood! I use Johnson's wax, applied with small rag or Q-tip, to all metal parts. Coat everything that may come in contact with the compound and then some. Next you'll have to figure out how to keep the compound from going where it shouldn't- like into screw holes, openings into the lock mortise and if present the ramrod spoon cut out. For the tang hole screw hole I just plug with a wad of tissue. For the hole in the tang I put a small, square piece of tape over the hole (you won't be using the tang screw during the bedding job). I just avoid the spoon cut out.

    For mixing I use the slightly concave bottom of a med to small metal can- like a tuna can. I use popsicle sticks for honey dipping the hardener and resin from the containers. I try to judge how much volume to mix up... then add a little. Once you start it's kind of hard to quickly mix up more. If you have the matrix filler like Score High or M. Gilbert that will also add some final volume. Use a very tiny bit of coloring agent- a little goes a long ways.

    I mix the two parts completely with a popsicle stick, add a little color with a tooth pick and stir that in, then finally add the matrix and stir. I usually add about 1/4 volume of matrix to 1 volume of compound. Precision measuring of the matrix is not critical- just add some. It will strengthen the epoxy and add some stiffness so it won't be so runny before setting up.

    I use a popsicle stick and honey dipper method to apply the compound to the wood. Dab, dab, spread, dab, dab, spread and so on to try to get the volume of compound in the right area and in the right amount. All you want to do is use enough to completely fill the void with a little bit oozing up around the margins. Spend some time with this because this is where it can get messy-- when the metal is pressed into the stock. Too little is usually cosmetic but will work ok, too much and it will keep oozing out and going every where- have the "knife" popsicle stick, alcohol and paper towels handy to handle any excess. Once the compound is applied and double checked for coverage and quantity, simply lay barrel into the stock. Push barrel rearward as far as possible to make sure the breech and tang areas are a good fit. Slip on the barrel bands. Wrap the breech/tang area with a couple of rubber bands- not too tight, just snug into the stock. Once no more compound is oozing out of the seams and has stabilized, lay the gun in a cradle in the horizontal position and wait- usually overnight up to 24 hours. Pop barrel out of stock, sand off areas of excess, drill out the tang hole and clean up any compound residue off the metal. Usually small amounts on metal can be carefully scraped off with no damage to the metal.

    I'm sure I left some details out but I think that's about it. Sounds involved, but really it isn't difficult. Just do some pre-planning and take the time to visualize the process.
    Last edited by fouronesix; 04-30-2013 at 11:44 AM.
    Trust but verify the honeyguide

  7. #27
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Alabama
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    Thank's for the write up, as soon as I get time I'm going to give it a go, it may be a while due to having far too many things going on at one time.
    My honeydo list is pretty long right now with it being good enough weather to get outside and work in the yard... oh joy.

    The tang area of my stock is probably in the most need of this but I suspect bedding the whole barrel would probably be a very good idea.
    I've also just about made up my mind to try and make some BP, a very small amount mind you, just to see if I can actually make it.
    About 4 ounces should be enough to evaluate the process and see if it's worth making a larger batch.
    Oddly enough I found I already have everything around the house needed to make the stuff except for the 91% isopropyl alcohol and that's available at the local grocery store.
    Bad idea? Probably, but if it produces a decent end product it'll be worth the effort and it's legal in this state to make BP for your own use.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check