"Real" Keith Bullets

[LAH]

I don't have a picture of the RCBS bullet but here's a picture of the mold. I'm thinking the bullet "nose" is a little longer than the Lyman or H&G. I think the lube groove is a little larger also. The bullet does shoot well though for me the Lyman did better. Other prefer the RCBS.

[Golfswithwolves]

Thanks for the help Mr. LAH

[9.3X62AL]

THAT is a colorful sobriquet, GolfsWithWolves!

[Golfswithwolves]

Thanks! Of course it's just a tip of my hat to our biggest local movie but it is an appellation which has served well.

[FN in MT]

I visited Mr. Keith at his home in the fall of 1979 and we did discuss molds. As I recall he mentioned that H&G and a few others EVENTUALLY got them right.

A dozen years back I found a pair of new in the box Keith style molds at the Bozeman gun show. One is a .45 Keith 265 gr, the other is for the .41 mag and 235 gr. I have the boxes someplace but IIRC built by PROCHKO. If I can find the boxes I'll post afew pics, with some shots of the bullets.

FN in MT

[LAH]

That would be a great asset to this thread.

[FN in MT]

Found my boxes and was also contacted by Mr. Prochko as well. He just joined the Forum so we should be hearing from him soon. So we should all learn the true story on his "True Keith" design molds shortly.

[FN in MT]

This is the .45-265 grain slug.

[9.3X62AL]

Yessir--THAT is what a SWC should look like--3 full-caliber drive bands of equal length, just as Mr. Keith specified.

[LAH]

I have the boxes someplace but IIRC built by PROCHKO.

FN in MT

Are you saying PROCHKO cut the moulds?

[FN in MT]

Are you saying PROCHKO cut the moulds?

"IIRC" ...........I recalled the Prochko name, forgot the box also said NEI.

I don't know who exactly cut it. NEI? Prochko?

Simply showing a few boxes I have from a pair of molds.

[PJP]

No, I didn't cut the molds .. Walt Melander who owned NEI before he passed away cut the molds from the masters (steel bar stock)made up in Salmon. Ed Shaller (a wonderful guy) who did gunsmith work in Salmon did the actual turning on the masters with me looking over his shoulder. Back and forth to Elmers and it took some time to get done. A couple of the masters had to be redone from scratch...they just were not right. When I first talked with Elmer about doing the project, we went out back to a smallish building that he kept some of his trophy's and things in. He had a wood desk with a top drawer with sections in the front and he had some of the 44 bullets he had kept over the years. We talked about each one, who made it, why it turned out the way it did and what he tried to get the companies to do but the way their bullets came he was unhappy about with different features of a number of them. At that point, it was apparent that Elmer talked to a number of mold makers about making the bullets and some did send him prints but he didn't care about the prints...he wanted them to send him sample bullets so he could see what they were like. According to Elmer, he would explain to them how he would like to see them made but that the samples they would send wouldn't be right and he just got frustrated with it. He said sometimes they would send him a sample that looked pretty good but when the molds came out, they had changed the design, which made him unhappier still. I did do up a print for a couple of the bullets which made good sense to me to work from but Elmer just set it aside and wanted to talk about how they (the bullets) should be designed. I thought about it then said I thought we could try to do some steel masters so he could look at them as they were worked on and he thought that would work. That's how it was approached until it was done and he was happy with the masters. I sent them to Walt at NEI and he was tickled with the whole thing and he made up molds. I sold some, and gave some to friends. I thought I could manage that and make some bullets if it wasn't on a large scale as I was working in Law Enforcement at the time but I made a mistake. I called the NRA and asked them to put me on their manufacturers list for True Keith Bullets... bad idea...about a month after doing that I started getting a number of orders from Africa from companies want 10,000 , 15,000 and more bullets made up for various double rifles... The whole idea of the project turned into something I hadn't anticipated and in fact initially, all I wanted to do was try to help get things right (the bullets). The idea of even sending masters to make molds evolved in the process but quite frankly, I wasn't looking to go into the bullet and mold business in the first place. I was happy with the challenge of Law Enforcement and I had a family and having worked more than one job on and off, it was ok with me to just be a cop and a dad. At the point of all the orders starting to pour in I just stopped everything after serious thought as to whether or not to tackle such a project while working as a cop. I asked Walt Melander to keep the masters and make up molds for people who wanted them and he was fine with that. This is a bit rambling but as I think about it I am typing so bear with me. I liked Elmer and growing up he always treated me well. My respect for him came mainly from the fact that a Montana cowboy (which was a hard way to make a living and didn't pay) who then worked pack and guide (still a tough go) who eventually got a break and a chance to write his stories became well known in a unusual profession...while living in Salmon Idaho which was a long way from anywhere..go figure. You have to give a man his due. Mind you, Elmer was not a natural writer at all which makes it all the more amazing. Peterson publishing did a good job editing. My parents had a business and my mother would often comment (she regularly was out the door at 3:00 am to get things done at the business) that she would see Elmer with his light on (at his house) typing when she went to work. Coming from my mother who was a hard worker, it meant she respected the fact that Elmer like her, would be working when others slept and that he worked hard at what he did. That brought me to respect Elmer and in the day, the magazine adds for bullets and molds in the various magazines called Keith type, Keith style or Keith bullets or molds just were not made right...that much I knew. Which is what eventually lead me to try to straighten that out...really just a matter of respect .

[PJP]

I should add, I haven't been doing anything on this forum for along time and I bumped into the forum again the other day when i was poking around for some of the more modern powder type II ( or level II or 20 thousand max psi ish pressure loads ) for the 44 special. It popped up this discussion. I had to re sign up for the forum as I had long since forgotten my user and password but after doing that I thought I should try to help clarify. I had about 20 molds when I shut down the mold and bullet making and I gave a number away to friends who cast and shot over the years. I quit casting some time ago due to worries about all the lead exposure. My purpose absolutely was to get the bullets (molds to people who appreciated the design (not mine..Elmers) and would enjoy them. At this point I have none of them left. I can remember some of the gentlemen I gave them to...a number of them and a couple close friends who had full sets...have been dead for awhile... While I was waiting for the clearance to post in the forum again I pm FN in Montana and he will save the two molds and bullets in the calibers he has so if anyone else wants a mold made up, a bullet can be sent to a mold maker. I knew Walt Melander passed away ( a great guy) but I had no idea the person (son in law) who took over the business would simply throw out a lot of Walt stuff ...go figure...so I am sorry that I didn't save molds and bullets for others ...I just assumed Walt and company had it covered..sorry about that.

[S.B.]

PJP. thank you, sir. Most interesting. Elmer's always been one of my heros.
Steve[

[9.3X62AL]

PJP--many thanks for making sure Mr. Keith's bullets got done the right way.

[PJP]

S.B. Your welcome... It's bothering me to know what happened at Walts company so, I will try to find someone (still living) that may have the .357 and the 44 calibers...which FN doesn't have. It will take some time so...if anyone on the forum has any of the bullets or molds please add a post to this thread so a bullet can be gotten for those that might want a mold. It would be a good thing to do. You know S.B., we had some good gun writers in Salmon ..Bob Hagel and Elmer...two completely different writers and Jack O Conner hunted in the back country traveling through Salmon once in awhile. My father was a bush pilot and had a back country flying service. When Jack would come down to fly into the back country, he would usually stay on his way out for dinner at our place before heading out the next day. Interesting man completely unlike Bob Hagel or Elmer ...but a very nice man. His wife was a hoot ... We had Cougar for dinner one time just for the heck of it...Jack had shot it and brought it out.. it wasn't bad ! Good men all of them...I miss men like that. The country needs men like them.

[PJP]

9.3x62AL Your welcome... I will feel better though if I can find the .357 and .44 I am glad I bumped into the thread...I will try.

[FN in MT]

Good post Paul.

I corresponded with Mr. Keith in the late 1970's regarding a Sharps rifle I had. We wrote several letters back and forth and he ultimately invited me out for a visit as I'd mentioned I was moving out to Helena, MT.

I finally visited in Fall of 1979. He autographed a few of his books for me and we had a very memorable afternoon. Got the tour of "the cabin" where he wrote and had many of his trophies. And got to see many of his rifles. Including ALL of his double rifles.

He was the real deal. I feel very blessed to have had the opportunity to have spent some time with him.

FN in MT

[PJP]

Fn He really did have some fine double rifles...seriously nice. It would take all of a afternoon to see and discuss what he had if he was in the mood to show them...which usually happened only when someone really appreciated them.

[LAH]

Alright guys, he is no longer anonymus & I still have no "masters". Such is life.