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Thread: "Real" Keith Bullets

  1. #21
    Boolit Master


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    Now you're talking! Now we're making some progress.


    Cat

  2. #22
    Boolit Mold
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    Can anyone here read???

    Elmer said in "Sixguns" (Chapter 5, first paragraph):
    "Long range shooting is the real test of any revolver or pistol. True, some loads were never intended for any but short ranges, but in the main, long range shooting will prove both gun and load."

    Looking at drawings and steel bullets will prove nothing about a Keith style bullet. Load it and shoot it in your gun AT LONG RANGE. That's the test.

    From first hand experience, the .452 320gr Keith from Dry Creek fails that test miserably. It won't shoot past ~300 yards, give or take. Others I've tested pass with outstanding results out to as far as you can see the dust kick up, 1000 yards plus.

    IMO, try 'em in YOUR gun before you buy mass quantities of a bullet that is said to work based solely on opinions and speculation.

    Dick

  3. #23
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    What are the others, and how do they compare in measurements? Personally, I can't see beer cans at 150 yards anymore, and at 300 yards I'd need an elephant sized target! ... felix
    felix

  4. #24
    Boolit Master


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    felix...I hear ya. I'm at about the gallon white Chlorox jugs at 200 yards. After that, It has to be BIG.....like a 5 gallon white plastic bucket./beagle

    Quote Originally Posted by felix
    What are the others, and how do they compare in measurements? Personally, I can't see beer cans at 150 yards anymore, and at 300 yards I'd need an elephant sized target! ... felix
    diplomacy is being able to say, "nice doggie" until you find a big rock.....

  5. #25
    Boolit Mold
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    Measurements?

    What do the measurements have to do with it? Shoot it!!
    I don't understand what the measurements have to do with performance.
    ????

    Mt. Baldy Bullets in WY makes a .452 310gr Keith that will shoot as far as you can see. I use a Sage brush or a large rock and shoot at it, coming up until I hit it. I'll shoot for a while and then sometimes pull out the rangefinder and see how far it is. Sometimes I don't care how far it was.

    So far, every Keith bullet I've received from Mt. Baldy passes the test (357, 44, 45, 475, 500). I don't cast, so I need a bullet maker that produces bullets that do what I want them to do. The ability to shoot at long range AND penetration on game animals are absolute necessities.

    Back to the measurements thing, the Dry Creek 320 and the Mt. Baldy 310 look almost identical, but one shoots and the other doesn't. Go figure.
    There is soooooo much more info on this type of testing I/we could share, but I really hate typing.

    Good luck, Dick

  6. #26
    Boolit Master


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    Well Dick,

    Possibly the measurments Felix was asking about was group size?

    You don't cast? Did I hear right? On this site that constitutes complete and total religious heresay and you can be stripped of an amazing amount of things you'd really rather keep.

    Actually (and please don't spread this about) I have used commerically cast bullets in the past, but never with much success. I much prefer to cast my own, I think I get much better quality and of course I can control the OD more closely.

    YMMV.


    Cat

  7. #27
    Boolit Mold
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    Group size??

    Kind of hard to judge the "group size" at 600 - 1000 yards on a sage brush or a rock. I judge my work by the ability to hit my target.
    My mentors have taught me to practice at long range in the manner I've mentioned (and closer work as well) and when that elk jumps up at 75 yards, no problem.

    Just out of curiosity, where are you guys located?

    Dick

  8. #28
    Boolit Master LAH's Avatar
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    Welcome Mr. Burns. The DC 45-320-K probably isn't the same bullet as Frank is casting, though I've never asked him. Test show the DC bullet to do fine as you say, to 300 yards, and would be fine for a 75 yard elk. It doesn't remain stable after that. I think being base heavy is the problem. The holes aren't round way out there. The DC 45-355-K didn't have that problem, nor the 45-275-K or the latest RCBS 45-270-SAA we've cast.

    These guys are wanting moulds, not bullets. They like to do group buys so they get what they want and get it at a price they can afford. They need bullet measurement to present the mould maker. Got any?

    Welcome to the board, you live in a pretty state. Creeker be from WV.
    Joshua 1:9

  9. #29
    Boolit Mold
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    The hard way...

    Lynn,
    To me, providing measurements of someone else's bullet design or obtaining some for the same purpose would be considered stealing. Frank works very hard and spends a lot of time creating a particular bullet the hard way. Making test bullets on the lathe, loading and shooting them and repeating the process until it works at long range. Then the samples go off to the mould maker.
    Taking measurements from some one elses design with out permission isn't right. Elmer provided those steel samples for a reason. Now if you called Frank and asked if you could use his design, that'd be different.
    I think half the fun would be creating a bullet from scratch and seeing what makes it fly. Then, when that sample went off to the mould maker, it would be of my own design.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Dick
    NRA Lifer

  10. #30
    Boolit Master LAH's Avatar
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    I wasn't aware Frank did his own design so I understand where you're coming from. I would also consider them Frank's property. I designed our 475 and 500 bullets but don't mind providing samples. What I do, anyone can. Bullet design and casting isn't like getting to the moon.....but it can be time consuming..........HEE HEE
    Joshua 1:9

  11. #31
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    A little background behind the Keith designs might help here. Keith used what he considered med to hard alloy, which in his case was 16:1 lead to tin as medium and 10:1 lead to tin as hard. Wheel weights in todays usage is soft to us and has age hardening components in it. Keiths alloys remained the same if it didn't have trace amounts of something else in it. Keith recommended sizing to barrel groove diameter. This negated problems with chambering a long front band in the cylinder. This is very important to this current discussion. If we order a fat bullet that has a full "fat" front band, we will run into the same problem that all our forebears ran into, THEY WON'T CHAMBER". This is why Lyman probably shortened and reduce the front band in diameter. This issue needs to be understood and resolved BEFORE FINALLIZING THE DESIGN or we will have the same problems. To whit, we either follow Keiths alloy and size recommendations or use a harder modern alloy and reduce the front bands length and diameter. Keith had absolutely no problems with the way he did it (his long front band fit in his cylinders due to groove diameter sizing and they slugged up when fired as necessary) and it worked at long range as intended. We on the other hand won't follow his path, but want his design. EVERYBODY READ THIS UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND IT, IT WILL MAKE OR BREAK THE DESIGN.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master LAH's Avatar
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    Very well said 45 2.1. It's either size the small enough or shorten the front band.
    Joshua 1:9

  13. #33
    Boolit Mold
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    I'm cornfused...

    45 2.1,
    First off, a name to address you as would be nice or are you hiding your identity for some reason?

    "We on the other hand won't follow his path, but want his design."

    Why not follow his (Elmer's) path? What path are you refering to?
    Is there something I'm missing?
    Dick
    NRA Lifer

  14. #34
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    Dick-
    Since that is how you sign yourself off, that is what i'll address you as. My name, as you've asked for is Bob, but I do like the handle I picked for myself and sign off useing it also. There are very few people who give their name as their handle on the web, you are one of those, everybody is different and not the same as you, be tolerant please. Read Elmers many books and you'll find his path.
    Show me just how many 16:1 or 20:1 lead to tin Keith bullet suppliers you can find advertising that alloy. Not many as most, with exceptions, say "hard cast". Not many people know what Elmer did let alone try it out. Most questions are "are wheel weights too soft". Wheel weights are alot harder than what Elmer did for sure. I posted to inform the group about what Elmer did and wrote about so an informed decision could be made. You, just as with everybody else, can decide what you want to do yourself.

  15. #35
    Boolit Mold
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    Yes, a Dick I am...

    45 2.1,
    Give Mt Baldy Bullets a call (307.754.5255) and talk to the owner about his knowledge of Keith designs/alloys/"paths". I think you'll be surprised that there is a "commercial" bullet maker (I'll use that term loosely as he casts most everything by hand) out there that follows the "path".
    Have a look: Mt Baldy Bullets
    Dick
    NRA Lifer

  16. #36
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    Dick-
    I don't buy bullets from anybody at all. Mine are better than any i've seen and they won't make them the way I want them. I've been over most all the paths and down the yellow brick road past the Emerald City into cast bullet dream land. I've had samples from Mt. Baldy before and talked with him over the phone, interesting guy.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master


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    Interesting, 45. Well worth thinking about.

    Dick, if that is your real name then you may be a bit new to the internet. Most people don't 'hide' behind their screen names, using your own name on the net is very poor security. And some of us have names a bit more unique than yours . Hopefully you'll never get the hard lessons available to one using their own ID.

    You may also find a bit friendlier reception on the boards is you remember that the printed word is much more limited that the spoken. For instance, I suspect you meant no rudeness with the title of your first post 'Can anyone here read???' . (I hope I have quoted it correctly) I can think of many ways you could say that to someone and have zero offence taken, but since we don't know you and you can't say it to us, well, it's easy for misunderstandings to occur.

    No offence intended.


    Cat

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Other than the sizing aspects are there any other advantages to using Keith's Alloy types as in terminal or accuracy performance?
    See Some of My Holster Work Here:
    www.whitetigerleatherworks.com

  19. #39
    Boolit Mold
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    Yes I know...

    and the name is Richard Burns. Most everyone calls me Dick.
    Yeah, lots of ribbing in my latter days of schooling. My wife calls me Dick quite a bit, and even calls me by my name sometimes.

    Internet security is what you make of it.

    My words and phrases are very carefully chosen. They are intended to offend those who are looking to be offended, and intrigue those seeking more. After many, many years working with the military, I've learned the pen is mightier than the sword (or Keith bullet).

    Glad no offense was taken by you.
    Dick
    NRA Lifer

  20. #40
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harley45
    Other than the sizing aspects are there any other advantages to using Keith's Alloy types as in terminal or accuracy performance?
    Keith shot pretty well with them and killed alot of targets of oppurtunity with his beltgun. The right alloy in conjunction with the right pressure range can do wonders, the trouble is in your finding it.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check