"Real" Keith Bullets

[LAH]

The only 44 Keith I know of with a .010 front band is the Late #503 which came out around the time of Keith's death. The earlier #503s and all the 429421s were all narrower.

The 429421 I sold had the .9 front band. It was by far our best seller.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Well, somebody furnished that Lyman drawing to a very good mold maker and did a group buy. I got one of the left overs i guess. I wanted a hp mold for my 357 revolvers. Will have to try a different one....

[LAH]

I received that drawing from Lyman. I asked for a blueprint of the bullet which they gladly gave but refused at request for the cherrie blueprint. This is the print for the 358429.

[Green Frog]

OK, I read the first couple and last couple of pages of this opus, and it seems most of the discussion involves which 44 and 38 versions of the Keith design are/were closest to his vision of the perfect bullet for those calibers. I’d like to take off in a slightly different direction. Please forgive if this has been exhaustively discussed already, but here goes.

It has been reported that Elmer Keith said of the 32 caliber bullets that he never bothered to design one as the old 3118 was already as good as he would want. However, about 25 years ago there was a group buy, fulfilled by Lee Precision, and described as the Keith design. Can some of you who have been using this mould comment and tell why, other than being about 10 grains lighter it is different from the 3118 and how it is more “Keith-y”? Extra credit for long usage of both bullets!

Froggie

[Dale53]

Froggie;
I have long usage of the .32 Group Buy Keith bullet. I still have the mold. It has equal width bullet "bands", has a square bottomed grease groove, a good crimp groove, and has a reasonably wide meplat in SWC shape (of course) and seems to exhibit all of the Keith charactersitics. It shoots well in the Smith 16-4, 631, and the Ruger Single Sixes in .32 H&R. It also does well in those revolvers in the .32 S&W Long case (using lighter loads, of course).

Off a rest, is shoots well under an inch at 25 yards in my revolvers as well as my Thompson Center in .32 H&R Mag using either case with appropriate loads.

All around good bullet in the .32's.

As a small matter of interest, my NOE mold of the RCBS (98gr SWC) also does well. The Keith bullet has a wider meplat but the RCBS has more of the weight outside of the case giving a possible theoretical advantage of allowing slightly greater case capacity.

Using both of them on targets, they seem to shoot equally well. Numerous examples of edible small game did not show a preference for one over the other. I suspect the same in regard to the Lyman bullet mentioned (3118).

FWIW
Dale53

[Green Frog]

Alright, thanks for the quick responses. To narrow things down a bit, I gather that the key features of the Keith design(s) involve a wide base band, a single, square bottom, wide grease groove, a relatively wide middle driving band and a distinct crimp groove with a full diameter driving band above the case mouth. The meplat is wide in proportion to most semi-wadcutters. Overall, the bullet is moderately heavy for caliber (but not extra heavy). The final piece of the design puzzle is the shape of the tapered part between driving band and meplat… is it straight or curved?

I have heard it said that a shortcoming of the venerable 3118 design is the lack of a distinct driving band above the crimp groove, with the bullet nose starting at just about bore diameter and curving down to a medium sized (for caliber) meplat. The question is, does the lack of a bore diameter driving band negate the advantage of the 3118’s weight in the comparison of this bullet to the GB version of the “Keith Concept” bullet in 32 caliber?

The quest continues!
Froggie

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Just got my first Arsenal mold today. A .358 170 grain Keith type design. Looks very nice.

[Catshooter]

Mr. Frog,

Member 45 2.1 & I did that group buy. He told me the same thing that Elmer said, the 3118 was good enough but I was insistant that I wanted a true copy of the 358429 for the .32. Three equal width driving bands and all. To me it was better because it had a good crimp groove (the 3118 has zero) and it weighed a bit less at about 105 grains.

The nose has a radius from the end of the front driving band to the meplat.

Is the Keith really better than the 3118? Hell no. I wanted what I wanted and that was that.

[Green Frog]

Thanks for that valuable input, Mr Catshooter. I’d say you answered my question well from a position of knowledge. Having a crimp groove with a full diameter driving band in front of it does provide a definite improvement over the venerable 3118, and that 105 grain weight seems to be a sweet spot for a variety of loads in the 32 revolver cartridges of all lengths.

I have a mould from that group buy on loan from one friend and am in the process of buying one from another friend who is retiring from casting, so I should be able to scratch the itch whenever I like now! I won’t be giving up my original Ideal 3118 (which drops bullets around 118 grains) nor my NOE 314008 (from a group buy… it drops 125 grain “lead zeppelins”) so I’ll be able to cover a stair step of different weights of this similar design to give me 32 SWCs “for all seasons”.

“I love it when a plan comes together.”

Froggie

[LIMPINGJ]

I’ve been casting some from Catshooter’s 32 Keith group buy mold the last couple days.

[LAH]

Mr. Frog,

Member 45 2.1 & I did that group buy. He told me the same thing that Elmer said, the 3118 was good enough but I was insistant that I wanted a true copy of the 358429 for the .32. Three equal width driving bands and all. To me it was better because it had a good crimp groove (the 3118 has zero) and it weighed a bit less at about 105 grains.

The nose has a radius from the end of the front driving band to the meplat.

Is the Keith really better than the 3118? Hell no. I wanted what I wanted and that was that.

Excellent reply.

[Green Frog]

Well, if all goes as planned, I’ll soon be the proud owner of one of the moulds from that group buy as well as an old Ideal DC 3118 I’ve had for years, and can compare them side by each! I still don’t know whether it’s the bore diameter band above the case mouth or the weight (or perhaps the combination of the two) that makes the 32 Keith style work so well, but I’m seeing a lot of comments about it that make me think I will like it. The ones I’ve cast and loaded while visiting Dale53 (all 32 H&R) have certainly performed well. I’m not giving up completely on the heavier Ideal 3118 and NOE 314008, but the Lee looks like it will be in “heavy rotation”.

Froggie

[K7sparky]

Green Frog
Mal Paso likely knows more about Kieth's slight changes in designs than anyone still living.

The attached partial picture of page 231 of Sixguns 1961 Edition is a snap shot of Kieth's thoughts about his design at that time.



Reading Chapter 16 "A Bullet Chapter" starting on page 227 is illuminating.

[LAH]

Thanks Sparky. I've read that before & going against most, I'm a fan of the standard weight for caliber bullet. I've cast & sold many 300-320 grain 44 bullets but for my own use, give me a 250 grain or something close & I'm happy.

[Green Frog]

Thanks Sparky. I've read that before & going against most, I'm a fan of the standard weight for caliber bullet. I've cast & sold many 300-320 grain 44 bullets but for my own use, give me a 250 grain or something close & I'm happy.

Oddly enough, the 32 “Keith Style” bullet discussed earlier in this thread is at most “normal for caliber” and maybe even a little “light for caliber”. I wonder how that happened(?) While the old tried and true Ideal 3118 that Keith was said to have liked runs 115 grains or more, the group buy Lee Keith 32 barely breaks 100. Not a complaint, just an observation.

Froggie

[S.B.]

Please post a link to this group buy in this discussion?
Steve

[Green Frog]

Sorry, Steve. This group buy was at least 15 or more years ago. It was done through Lee, and as far as I can tell, they aren’t doing group buys these days. You might check with Catshooter since it was his project, but I can’t imagine such a link even existing now.

Froggie

[S.B.]

No thanks I've had my troubles with group buys lately?
Steve

[Green Frog]

I was looking for something else and found this drawing. It was labeled in the file as a Keith Bullet, .314" at 100 grains, but somehow all of the dimensions got stripped out of the drawing.
Anyway, FWIW...

[hporter]

On Castpics.net there is an archive of group buys.

On page 2, under 32 H&R you will find this graphic:




Is the third bullet, the 98 grain SWC the group buy you mentioned Green Frog?

https://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/t...ive/392-32-h-r