Uberti 1885, 38/55

[ktw]

Range report, or "I finally got around to taking this thing out and shooting it".



I am still collecting odds and ends toward fitting a cast bullet to this rifle. JohnH sent me a SC Lee 379-250-RF mold a while back. fa38 sent me a batch of SAECO 571 bullets (300 gr, plain based, tapered). Still working on a .382 expander plug with RedneckDan. Ordered a .382 H&I die from Buffalo arms. Got in on Boomer Mikey's 381-268-RF Group Buy. Ordered up some 383/265 bullets from Bullshop to tide me over till the group buy mold arrives.

The objective of the excercise today was to fireform 50 of the Starline 38-55 (long) cases to the chamber. The Saeco 571's are a great looking bullet that casts at .384 on the base band and I would like to shoot a few to see how well they stabilize in the 1:18 twist before ponying up for a mold. The largest expander plug I currently have is the .379 that comes with the RCBS 'Cowboy" die set. I am hoping to finger seat the Saeco 571 in a fireformed case rather than jam it down a case with an inside diameter of .378/.379.

I had about 75 of the Lee 379-250-RF already cast up. Some of these were .379/BHN 8 and some where from a run where I had beagled the mold to get a .381/BHN 12. I expanded the cases to .379, finger lubed the as-cast bullets with NRA 50-50 and loaded them up over 16.0 gr of 2400. Seated to a COL of 2.556" the .381/BHN 12 bullets lightly engraved in the rifling and the .379/BHN 8 bullets did not.

I put the rifle on the bags and did a quick boresite to get the tang peep set close. The first five rounds I used to finish the sight settings. It took a lot more elevation on the sight than I had anticipated. The rifle came with a short, dovetailed front post. I like the sight picture this gives for target work better than the front bead on my top-eject Winchester 94. I am glad it is not taller than it is given how far I had to crank up the tang peep (47 clicks up from bottom).

I shot a few groups. The .381/BHN12 bullets gave me 1.0" to 1.50" groups (@ 60yds) and the .379/BHN8 bullets ran more on the order of 1.5"-2.0" (@60 yds). This was better than I had anticipated given the under-sized bullets and a random load. I fired the last 10 over a chronograph and got a mean velocity of 1452 fps.

The Starline (long) cases fire-formed out to an inside diameter of .3830"-.3835" (caliper measurement) and shortened ~ 0.010" in the process; started in the range of 1.120" to 1.125", fire-formed to 2.110" to 2.115".

Now to load up some of those Saeco 571's. If everything goes well the rest of this week I may get a chance to fire them off this Friday...



-ktw

[Buckshot]

...............Good report. The mentioned disparity in groove diameter is keeping me from pre-loading my 100 new long Starline cases. I do have about 70 rounds (shorter cases) loaded up for my M93 Marlin with the Saeco 225gr tapered slug, sized .381" over 16.0 2400. Rates about 1.250" for 5 @ 50 yards from the levergun. I can use these to shoot if my "To be recieved" highwall slugs small enough.

.............Buckshot

[ktw]

I had an opportunity to shoot the 300 grain Saeco 571 last friday. These are 1.109" long. Got round holes at 100 yards and 1300fps.

The problem I had with them was that when sized to .382 (left target) or used "as cast" (right target) they seated with zero neck tension in the fireformed Starline cases. Not so loose as to fall into the case but loose enough that they can easily be pushed too deep in the case. I crimped them into the 3rd drive band and this held them in place well enough to engrave the first two drive bands into the rifling.

In lieu of having the proper sized expander plug I think I'm going to try using some blown out 30-30 cases next time around. The thicker neck walls should give me a bit more neck tension. Will save the Starline cases for blackpowder use later.

I used the same 16.0 2400 load which gave me 1300 fps with the 300 grain bullet in the 30" barrel.

I plan to shoot another round of the Saeco 571 at 200 yards at some point in the future.



-ktw

[Boz330]

Thats not to bad to start. Did you weigh your bullets? That could account for the flyers. As you pointed out, even neck tension, instead of a roll crimp might help a lot as well. A taper crimp die if you can find one might be the ticket. Buffalo Arms might have one and I don't think they are to expensive.

Bob

[ktw]

I agree, there are quite a few things I could do to reduce those fliers. I was also fighting a gusty wind that day. The objective of the range session was to see if I got round holes with a bullet that long in a 1:18 twist.

I still have a lot of things to try in order to tighten the groups.
- more neck tension
- tune the load, different powder/charge weight
- LP/LR primers
- filler in the case
- front site upgrade
- more practice with peep sites at 100-200 yards

-ktw

[Bullshop]

KTW
This is still just my opinion, but because you are getting round holes at 100 yards do not assume it will do the same at longer range until you try.
I was shooting the Lyman 330gn boolit(length unkown)and shooting very good at 100 yards. Good enough that I decided I would use it for a long range match. Pressed for time I put off developing sight settings until a couple days before a match. Everything was good until the boolits passed about 300 yards then they began to buzz. Yup you could hear them when they got unstable. At 500 yards I couldnt consistantly hit the target backer which was a pallet. Droping down in weight/length ever so slightly(length unknown) from the 330 Lyman to a 310 NEI and we were still shooting groups out to 800 yards. This was the load Jr. used to better my shooting at Amidon, I with a Browning 45/70 and proven match load.
I had the same problem with the Browning 45/70 while developing match loads for it. Shooting an NEI 570gn from the Browning 1/18" twist gave wonderful groups at 100 and 200 yards but somewhere between rifle and 500 yards the dreded whizzzzzz of the boolit headed off of its own will and not mine.
That is why I have been pretty insistant in that you will run into trouble at long range with some of the longer boolits available in 38 cal. with that 1/18" twist
When we designed our boolit for the 1/18" twist rifles we used a reasonably efficiant nose shape that gave the most weight for length but were still maxed out at a 265 gn boolit acording to the program at MT. Molds.
I have been very interested in hearing of your results, and will be pleased if you prove me wrong, but I am just stuborn enough that I cant shake the conclusions I have come to yet.
I shot with a fella at the Quiggly that was shooting a high wall 38/55 with a 1/12" twist and custom 370gn boolits. When we had to finish our 800 yard buffalo target a storm had blown in and the wind was litterally blowing the tents away. Him and I were the only ones that had hits and we were 4 for 8. I was shooting the Browning with a prefered match load and he that 38 and the way the wind was blowing I was surprised we hit it at all. BTW 1/12" is standard for the 375 H&H.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[McLintock]

Here's a couple of loads you guys might consider trying in your Uberti 38-55 with those 1-18 twists. These were done in a Browning 1885 with a 1-15" twist, but with bullets that should be compatible with the slower twist. I've been shooting both these loads about 10 years now in Cowboy Action Long Range.
The first is with a plain base 245 gr, .380 diameter and with 18 gr of IMR4227. I got the load from a Ken Waters Pet Loads article on the 375 Winchester and it's proven to be a very consistent and dependable load in my Browning. This is a 10 shot group at 100 yards; the flyer is definitely me.


The second is with a Lyman 375449 with gas check, .381 diameter and 31.0 gr of IMR3031. Got it from the same article and it's been good out to 500 yards, haven't shot it further than that.

I've won the National Championship title for Long Range Single Shots in Cowboy Action twice with this load. You have to shoot very fast and accurately so you need a load that you feel will hit even if you're not dead center on the target and this ones done it for me. It's also been listed in the 2004 Gun Digest in an ariticle for old timer hunting loads as excellent for the 38-55. Excellent smokeless load for the 38-55.
When I first started shooting a 38-55 I tried all kinds of of powders, 5744, RL-7, 4198, 2015 and a couple others I've forgotten, but they never outshot these two powders for me, although 2015 did shoot better in both my lever guns. Just something else to try if you feel like it.
McLintock

[GLL]

Many thanks to ktw and McLintock ! Great information. It is in my book for future reference.

Jerry

[ktw]

Thanks to all for the replies, comments and load data.

KTW
This is still just my opinion, but because you are getting round holes at 100 yards do not assume it will do the same at longer range until you try.

Understood. I only shot at 100 yards in the last range session because I only had 15 rounds loaded up and I neglected bring along a larger target backer to use at the 200 yard line. I do plan to check for stability at 200 and 300 in the future. I am not a long range competative shooter. I would be satisfied with a bullet for this rifle that retained stability to 300 yards.

I am not heavily invested in this longer 300gr bullet. It just happens to be the only one I currently have in hand to play with at .382+ and one of the very few off-the-shelf molds that will give me that much as-cast diameter. I look forward to trying some of your 265's and, at some point in the future, the Boomer Mikey Group Buy 268's.

-ktw

[ktw]

38-55 cast bullet comparison

These are the 38-55 bullet designs I have been able to collect up recently, along with some measurements and notes.


A) Lee 379-250-RF (have a mold)
Casts at (WW): .3790"-.3800"
Weight = 257.0g-257.8g
Length = 0.926"

Have been able to beagle this one out to .3815" or so. May try to beagle it further. Not much room to place tape on the face of the blocks of this SC mold. May try running the tape in the "V" alignment grooves instead.

B) Bullshop/MM 383-263
Casts at (WW)
..Base band.. = .3845-.3850
..other bands = .3830-.3835
Weight = 263.1g-263.5g
Length = 0.971"

As sold by Bullshop.

C) SAECO 571 (Tapered)
Casts at (Unknown lead-tin alloy):
..Base Band = .3830-.3835"
....B+1...... = .3825-.3830"
....B+2...... = .3810-.3820"
....B+3...... = .3795-.3805"
....B+4...... = .3770-.3775"
....B+5...... = .3750-.3760"
....scraper.. = .3730"
Weight = 309.0g-309.2g
Length = 1.109"

D) SAECO 738 (Tapered)
Casts at (unknown lead-tin alloy):
..Base Band = .3810-.3820"
....B+1...... = .3790-.3800"
....B+2...... = .3770-.3780"
....B+3...... = .3750-.3760"
....B+4...... = .3740-.3750"
....scraper.. = .3730
Weight = 251.7
Length = 0.939"

E) Lyman 375449
Casts at (WW?): .3770-.3780"
Weight = 274.7gr
Length = 1.040"

Bullet is standing a little crooked in picture. Base is good, but there is a small nub on the sprue.

F) Buckshot Group Buy 383-260
Casts at (WW?): .3840-.3875"
Weight: 255.6g
Length: 0.932"

Samples I have are not very round.


I have shootable quantities of A, B and C. I only have a couple each of D, E and F. Plan going forward is to do some load development work with the Bullshop bullet (B) and some 200-300 yard stability tests with the Saeco 571 (C).

I honed out a .382 H&I die to .383 and sized up some of the Bullshop/MM 383-262 (B). These are a much better fit in the unsized Starline 38-55 brass. I could seat a slightly larger (.3835?) bullet in the unsized case but want to try them this way before taking the H&I die larger.

Tempted to scare up a Lyman 375449 mold to use for some paper patch shooting.

-ktw

[Kraschenbirn]

Shot my Uberti .38-55 Highwall this afternoon for the first time since I installed the Marble Tang Sight and Lyman 17A Globe and it weren’t too shabby if I do say so, myself.

Group below was shot @ 50 meters (IHMSA “chicken” berm) in a gusty 12-15 mph cross-wind and the lower 5-shot cluster goes .525” CTC with the called flyer at 12 o’clock opening the group to 1.011.” Load is an “as cast” 265 gr plain-base from an old Ohaus mold (.381 dia. in 25-1 alloy) over a duplex charge of 42 gr Goex FFg / 3 gr H4227 with a .030 fiber wad. Bullets are pan-lubed with Emmert’s and cases are W-W with Federal Large Rifle Primers. Bullets are seated out to just touch the rifling.

100 meter groups also showed promise…best was just over 3 ½” horizontal (darned cross-wind) by 1 ¼ “ vertical. By that time, though, it had clouded over and the temperature was falling like a homesick crowbar and I just wasn’t dressed for a 30 degree wind chill so I only fired enough rounds to get a solid 100M zero before packing it in for the day.

Bill

[ktw]

I don't get the opportunity to do much load development range work this time of the year since our ranges are typically snowed in. We will occasionally snowshoe in a half mile with a handgun or muzzleloader for some exercise, but it gets to be a bit much to haul in a lot of rifle gear when all of the hauling is on your back.

This year we had some fortuitous weather conditions which left us with a lower than normal snow cover, and the road out past our 60 yard range is currently plowed open for a nearby logging job. I took advantage of the situation to do some more shooting with the Uberti Highwall today.

I had mounted a Lyman hooded front site (17a) on the rifle last October. Last week I got out to the range to site that in. I also picked up a single cavity Lyman 375449 since my last report.


Series #1: 50 rounds loaded in Starline 2.125 brass over 28, 29 and 30 gr of IMR 3031.

Lee 379-250-RF @ .382 seated in unsized brass, roll crimped in the crimp groove
BS/MM 383-265 @ .383 seated in unsized brass, roll crimped on the nose above the crimp groove
BS/MM 383-265 @ .382 in partially sized and expanded (.379) brass, lightly taper crimped

Groups ran 2-3 inches at 60 yards and velocities ran 1375-1550 fps. Got a lot of vertical stringing and unburned powder. 28-30gr IMR 3031 does not burn cleanly in this pressure range, particularly in the low neck tension, unsized brass. Use a faster powder for light to mid-range loads.

The BS/MM 383-265 has a full diameter nose above the crimp groove. When sized .382/.383 the full diameter nose portion is too large to fit past the roll crimper in my RCBS Cowboy 38-55 die set (I did not try them sized any smaller). Therefore, I cannot use a roll crimp at this diameter. In the Starline 2.125 brass these need to be seated with the crimp groove inside the case. In my shorter 30-30 brass they work well taper crimped to the top of the top drive band.


Series #2a: 30 rounds of BS/MM 383-265 in blown out Winchester 30-30 brass over 29.0 - 31.5gr IMR 3031

Brass was partially sized and expanded to .379". The slightly thicker brass, increased neck tension and increased powder charges gave higher pressures and better results. Groups ran 1.2" to 2.25" at 60 yards and 1575-1700 fps. Groups opened up at 31.5gr IMR 3031 (1739 fps) which appears to be just too much velocity for the plain based bullet. There is a decent load to be worked up someday in the range of 30-31 grains IMR3031 and I was pretty happy about that... until I got to the last series...


Series #2b: 20 rounds of Lyman 375449 paper patched to .382"

This is my first try at paper patch bullets, and man do these things shoot. I am sold.

The bullets were flawless. The paper patching was of the "still learning" variety. I used two wraps of Mead Acadamie Tracing Paper over as-cast bullets (.377). I didn't find it terribly easy to wrap the patch evenly over the different diameters of nose/drive bands/ gas check shank. Once on they stretched/shrank to a nice form fit on the bullet. They wrapped to .383. After drying I very lightly finger lubed the paper patch with Lee Alox and ran them through a Lee .382 sizer. I loaded them up over 30, 31 and 32 grains of IMR 3031 in blown out 30-30 brass, seated out as long as possible.

Groups ran 0.86" to 1.50" at 60 yards and velocities in the range of 1630-1775 fps.


Best potential load of the day was the Lyman 375449 Paper Patched to .382 over 32.0 grains of IMR 3031 in blown out Winchester 30-30 brass: 0.86" for 5 shots at 60 yards and 1777 fps.



-ktw

[Buckshot]

..............I posted this over on the swaging and paper patching forums, so what the heck, I'll post it here too



No, the boolit in the case isn't at it's correct seating depth The Uberti Hi-Wall doesn't have a throat that long! I just stuck it in like that 'cause it looks kewl. Also, those 321 gr slugs probably wont' stabilize in the Uberti's 18" twist. I had only swaged up maybe 10 of'em so I thought I'd go ahead and patch'em up and give them a try anyway.

Those at 296grs should be just fine as the 18" twist will handle 300 grs. These ended up at .381". I've used up all my 9lb paper which was .0022" and would have given me a .382" slug. I had picked up some light vellum hoping it would replace the airmail paper. When I miked it it was .0027". That's too much as the measurement over the dried patch was a bit more then .384".

Luckily enough one day I was schlumping along after the wife as she cruised every freaking aisle at a craft store. The had an art dept and I perked up checking out some of the paper. I had tried Strathmore brand tracing paper before and while it was nice looking stuff, it would fall apart when wet. This place had some Academie brand, by Mead IIRC. I got it out and it miked .0017". A bit smaller then I wanted, however when wet it held together and would actually stretch.

So those swaged boolits in the photo are patched with that, and losing the half thou per wrap resulted in a .381" vs a .382" patched boolit. The groove is .3794" so this should still work well.

...................Buckshot

[ktw]

..............I posted this over on the swaging and paper patching forums

Your earlier post was obviously just a cruel trick to tempt me into buying all the equipment necessary for swaging. You guys are going to be the death of my kid's college funds.

Fortunately I was strong enough to resist that temptation, but not strong enough to avoid ordering an adjustable PP mold from Red River Rick. I look forward to trying that out next sumer.

Now, off to the casting pot. I'm going to be needing a pile of those 375449's to tide me over.

-ktw

[ktw]

..............I posted this over on the swaging and paper patching forums...

My paper patching efforts with the Lyman 375449. Looking forward to trying this without the lube grooves when the smooth side mold comes in.



-ktw

[Buckshot]

My paper patching efforts with the Lyman 375449. Looking forward to trying this without the lube grooves when the smooth side mold comes in.
-ktw

..............A 'Made to patch' smooth slug ain't magic I've shot some truly great groups from my 45-70 with the Lee 457-405F paper patched, and don't see how a slug that's smooth could make much of a difference!

.................Buckshot

[ktw]

..............A 'Made to patch' smooth slug ain't magic

I'm not expecting them to shoot any better. I am expecting them to be easier to wrap. I'm having difficulty getting the paper wrapped evenly and uniformly with all that surface topography.

The ones in the picture are some of the good ones. I'm getting a 10-20% reject rate on bad wraps.

-ktw

[KCSO]

This thread should be a sticky as there is so much good information here. I also shoot a Uberti 38-55 and like the basic gun but dislike haveing to shoot handloads only. All the COWBOY loads i have gotten were all 376 bullets and were worthless.

[Buckshot]

I'd posted this on the BPC forum and thought i ought to put it here also since there was so much info on the Uberti here.

.................I shot the patched slugs last Wednesday. That attempt was less then steller, but it was fun in any respect.

To back up a bit, accuracy with this rifle (Uberti Hi-Wall) has been, so far a bit less then spectacular. It may be forend issues. I haven't checked yet. However it has a couple rough spots in the barrel. Rough as in patches will drag and it feels 'snaggy', if I can make up a word . There is nothing to be seen looking down the barrel from either end.

I have ordered a bore lapping kit from Midway, along with 100 of the cheapest .375" bullets I could find listed. However after firing the 20 patched slugs I had loaded, if anything the 2 places seemed to be less grabby. All 20 rounds flew through their targets point on, and there was no leading. Add to that, there NEVER has been any leading in the some 200 rounds I'd put through it previously.

With that aside, the patches dispersed at the muzzle in tiny pieces as they should have. I didn't have a blow tube (do now) at the time and the 20 rounds were shot thus:

5 rounds, 50 yards no cleaning. The group was maybe 1.5" wide but 8" tall with the shots climbing for each sucseeding shot.

5 rounds, 50 yards and the barrel cleaned before each shot. This produce 4 rounds in about 1.5 - 2" with one off about 2" to the left.

5 Rounds, 100 yards no cleaning. THe shot dispersion was very similar to the 50 yard group fired dirty. I'd have thought it would have been zinging past the target board without even hitting.

5 rounds, 100 yards with the barrel cleaned before each shot. The 1st shot was in the X. The other 4 rounds landed in the upper left corner of the target paper. They were strung horizontally maybe 4" but only about 1" differance in elevation.

I thought the powder fouling would have been worse, but the barrel essentially cleaned with one patch damp with Birchwood Casey's #7 BP solvent after each shot. Of singular appearance to me wast the first patch pushed through the barrel. Upon exiting the muzzle the very end of the patch had a multitude of hair or filament type objects standing up. They had obviously lain parallel to the axis. Don't know what they are except I thought possibly slivers of paper. However they seemed a bit too stiff for that.

I don't plan on shooting it again until I've fire lapped the barrel and fired those 100 jacketed slugs downrange.

....................Buckshot

[Boz330]

Buckshot did you break the barrel in when you first got it, with jacketed?
When I got my 38-55 form C-Sharps the break in called for 20 rounds of jacketed. Cleaning after each shot for the first 10 and then after 2 shots for the second 10. This was for a Badger barrel and the break in directions are on there website. I don't see why this wouldn't work for any new barrel and sure wouldn't hurt. With lead boolits it called for a 100+ rounds. Personally I'm not that fond of cleaning.
I've lapped several barrels over the years and it worked fine on some and was a waste of time on a few. You might have something on checking the fore end, could be the barrel is heating up and pushing it against the receiver. Eight inches vertical at 50yd is a lot. Good luck.

Bob