Has Anyone Made A Gas Check (Cap) Punch ?

[DoctorBill]

Why won't you show us, with some photos, what your threading set up looks like ?

When you attempted to thread, what did you have set up...what machine do you have ?

What didn't work ? What part ?

No worries, Mate. The guys here can get you to where you want to go !



DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I finished turning the Punch Ram today...


and honed the ram to the die and tried it.....on the Arbor Press.


It forms OK with 0.004" Aluminum Pop Can Metal, but cuts thru the 0.013" Aluminum
Sheeting I have.
There should be plenty of room for the 13 thou Aluminum to swag ! (?)
16 thou for the metal to fit in there.

I have to open up the bottom hole or ease the edge of the inner hole or ease the edge
of the Ram Punch at the bottom.

Don't know which would work ?

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

Why won't you show us, with some photos, what your threading set up looks like ?

When you attempted to thread, what did you have set up...what machine do you have ?

What didn't work ? What part ?

No worries, Mate. The guys here can get you to where you want to go !

DoctorBill

db, i am putting the threading off for the moment because with the edmsith design i am using i dont need threads for it and i can still use it in my press... the threading is for a swage die project i am working next...

i finished the base tonight, turned out OK considering i dont have a mill and i had to use a rat tail file to make the ejection slot for the gas checks after they are punched and formed:




the punch looks great... are you going to heat treat the tip? just put a propane torch on it until it just starts to turn orange/red then quench in water...

[DoctorBill]

The metal that I am using is Hot Rolled "Mild Steel" with scale which I am told
means it has no Carbon, thus won't harden up.

What is left is "Case hardening". Been trying to find Kasenit or Cherry Red at
ENCO or Grizzly, but nothing in their catalogs or web sites.
Nobody in Spokane even knows what Case Hardening is - I must be awful old !

E-Bay sells Potassium Ferrocyanide which is pretty much what Kasenit was.
Guess it isn't made any more.....(?)
Can't buy chemicals with this Draconian Government.

My friend Gary, the machinist, says they used to use Bone Charcoal.
I'll just go down to Safeway and buy some ! lol

This company has Cherry Red for $10 less per lb than Midway !
http://usaknifemaker.com/ Just ordered a pound.

Gary kinda thinks I'm nuts for spending the time working Mild Steel.
I had it and it is cheap. I'm cheap. It is easy to work on. Easy is good.

I remember that Gary said I can use Bolts as a Raw Material - very good steel.
So at 40¢ a pound, I got several BIG "Honkers" at Pacific Steel here.



Cane Man - I too bought a 6' piece of threaded steel rod in 7/8 to make
some Dies. That was before I knew how to thread HA'ed.

You won't learn if you don't do.

DoctorBill

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

you can get some case hardening by getting a can big enough for you part, packing it with sawdust or other organic powder then seal it all up and bake it for several hours in a BBQ or something that will heat the steel to red temperature. Carbon will diffuse into the mild steel part. Take the "can" apart while everything is still hot and the part is red then drop into water.

That will produce a case hardened part. probably thin case but usable. I made a reamer once out of something less than high carbon steel so it wouldn't harden up as much as needed so I did the above and it worked fine. had I bee able to find Kasenite, I would have used it. Anyway, the old timers did it with sawdust and such. Colour case hardening was apparently done with leather and bonemeal packing.

It is pretty simple and may salvage your work.

As for bolts, it depends on grade. Grade 8 bolts can be hardened up very nicely. I use old Mazda head bolts for reamers and they work very well.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

Been going back to the Ed Smith pdf file
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1927073...Maker1%262.pdf
and I don't see that he beveled the edges of the 'Female' portion of the cup die.

I have about 0.016 space between the rod and the die, but it is cutting the
disk like a punch.

I believe I need to 'round' the edge of the cup forming die....



Question is - HOW do I do that in a big steel block ?

DoctorBill

[oldred]

You are right that Kasnit is no longer available but your Cherry Red and mild steel parts will work just fine. Carbon pack hardening requires heating to red hot and holding for a long time while Cherry Red works much quicker and simpler, just heat the part red hot and dip it in the powder then reheat and quench. The difference is that the carbon pack method will produce a much deeper case than the Cherry Red which will only go a couple of thousandths deep, there is a trick I use with the stuff however that does almost as good as carbon packing. I pack the parts to be hardened in a small steel box along with the Cherry Red powder similar to the way it would be packed with charcoal for the carbon pack, heat the box containing the parts and the CR powder until they are red hot (I usually preheat the part just prior to heating the box) and then hold that temperature for about 3 or 4 minutes (a bit longer would be even better) then dump the parts into water to cool them. Doing it this way I have had no trouble getting a case of .020 or even thicker and it all happens a LOT quicker than the carbon pack method.

[FrankG]

Check brownells for hardening compound . Another brand is Tuff-N-Hard works just like Kasenite.

I beveled the Male punch just enough to break the edge then buffed on buffing wheel to mirror finish . Then hardened with tuff-n-hard .Beveling it stopped it from cutting through

[longbow]

I haven't searched for Kasenite here but being in a small town many things are not readily available anyway. Never heard of Tuff-N-Hard or Cherry red but will look. I have some parts to case harden and it sounds much quicker and easier than carbon packing. I just did that because I didn't have anything better.

Longbow

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

I wouldn't get too carried away with the radius on that edge. Try just breaking it a little by using emory cloth on a dowel. That may do it. Also, try using some lubricant on the disks before forming.

I had much the same problem when I made my simple check maker so broke the sharp edge and also ran a few disks through with valve lapping compound on them. That worked pretty well but I also gave my disks a spray of WD 40 before forming and that seemed to help as well.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

Hard-n-Tuff made by James Morton Limited, Cambridge, Ontario N1R 3L3.

Cannot find a supplier on the Internet, just a lot of 'Business" stuff with
no E-Mail address. Does anyone in the USA sell this ?

Finding Case Hardening Compounds is like trying to find an Honest Person
in the White House.

I suppose the one pound of Cherry Red will do me - when I get it thru the USPS.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Hard-n-Tuff made by James Morton Limited, Cambridge, Ontario N1R 3L3.

Cannot find a supplier on the Internet, just a lot of 'Business" stuff with
no E-Mail address. Does anyone in the USA sell this ?

Finding Case Hardening Compounds is like trying to find an Honest Person
in the White House.

I suppose the one pound of Cherry Red will do me - when I get it thru the USPS.

I had my 0.013" Aluminum Caps getting CUT instead of formed so I 'eased' the inner
edge with this....and the tip of the Punch on the Lathe.



A minute or so of this and the Die worked fine....



'Hot Melt Glue' is one of the MOST useful inventions around....

I nested a 0.004" Pop Can Disk on top of a 0.013" Al Flashing Disk and
it made a nice Gas Cap which is thicker - Sized the Slug to 0.457 and
it looks good.

THIS is not as elegant as Ed's, but I don't shoot much and I don't need
thousands of the Gas Caps. I am as happy as Barack Obama at a Gun Control
meeting on the 4th Green at Hollywood Celebrity Country Club !

What's Next.......I'm getting bored.

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

DB, you have to round the forming punch "nose" some or else it will cut thru... just chuck it in the lathe, and put a smallish file to the edge, polish, and you should be good to go

edit: alright i see what you have done, works

bored? now move on to swaging dies, see if you can turn a .22LR case into a 400 gr WFN for a .500sw, that ought to keep you busy for a while

[DoctorBill]

All done - works - needs refining to drop Caps out the bottom.
In there pretty tight at this point.

It has three places for more Punch Holes.



A fun project and a learning experience.

Hope someone got something good out of this rambling thread.

DoctorBill

OK Cane Man....I'll try that. lol

I have made 557-450 Martini-Henry Cases out of Magtech 20 Gauge Brass Shotgun cases !
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...roductId/11078
Big Thread on this subject on this Forum somewhere.
That Rifle is my "Treasure" - 1877 that may have been used at Roark's Drift against the Zulus.
Shoots like a dream - accurate - was used to bring down Elephants in India. 22 inch triangular Bayonet !
Don't know where mine was used... sure would be nice if it could talk ! Big History in that.
https://www.google.com/search?num=10...w=1080&bih=489
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...1#.UXRewvcxFVU



THAT was a hideous amount of work...but I saved about $350 on 88 cases (useful yield from 100 Brass).
That is - if you can even find 577-450 cases for sale ! (Was Jameson - now Captech International).
http://www.buffaloarms.com/577_450_M...x?TERM=577-450
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...5&TERM=577-450

Wow - Check this out for Brass - was Jameson, now Captech.
http://www.captechintl.com/proddetai...prod=577-450MH

I would like to find one of the Aussie Practice Martini's in 357 Magnum pistol round.

[Cane_man]

db that is awesome! is that a 2 step check maker... punch the disk then form the cup?


i read one of your threads where you made a D Reamer, i book marked it for later as that is on my to do list as well for my swaging projects:

1) turn 9mm brass in to 10mm/0.40SW JHP (the warmup project)

2) turn .22LR or 1/4" copper tubing in to 0.243 Win projectiles (the whole Magilla)

[DoctorBill]

"db that is awesome! is that a 2 step check maker... punch the disk then form the cup?"

Yes.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2170041

DoctorBill

[smoked turkey]

DoctorBill I thoroughly enjoyed the thread. I learned a lot from the back and forth as well as your ramblings (Ha). Thanks for doing your project. I am anxious for your next learning experience. No I don't do lathe work and am not a machinist. However, after seeing all the fun you guys are having I would like it.

[Cane_man]

alright db, i finally finished my shank base check maker, this is an Edsmith design where the checks collect at the bottom (these are 0.243 checks):



still have some bugs to work out but it is making usable checks right now, used aluminum beverage can material and 0.010 al roof flashing

[DoctorBill]

Nice work !

I may work up the nerve to try that soon......Been passing a Kidney Stone
and it isn't quite out....making me not want to do much right now.

Bought a 12" DRO from ebay and am attaching it to the vertical column
of my Harbor Freight Mini-Mill.

Life kinda gets ahold of you by the noodicles and RUNS !

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

db sorry to hear of your situation, prayers for you hang in there...