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Thread: Has Anyone Made A Gas Check (Cap) Punch ?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Has Anyone Made A Gas Check (Cap) Punch ?

    My new Lathe and Mini-Milling Machine are both calling to me to be used !

    I just bought a Marlin Model of 1895 45-70 Lever Rifle, and until Obama comes for it, I'd
    like to load some LEE Cast .459 Bullets with Gas Checks (Caps).

    However, I thought a GREAT project for my Lathe would be to make my own Gas Cap Puncher
    and use it with Aluminum Pop Can Metal (Cheaper than a Washington Politician).

    So - has anyone made their own ?

    I know the FreeChex III guy sells (sold) them, but I want's ta make it myself !

    Any plans, diagrams or photos available ?

    DoctorBill
    Ignorance is expensive.
    Teach your children what you have learned.
    Give them a good head start in life.
    It is your duty to pass on what you have learned,
    else we will be no different than frogs.
    Your only problem - getting them to listen !
    Ribbit.....ribbit.....ribbit....

  2. #2
    Boolit Master



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    I used the PDF at this link. This was written by Edward Smith. (Thank you Mr. Smith)

    xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/19270735/1972319883/name/Check-Maker1%262.pdf
    A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that. - Shane

    Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
    Sir Winston Churchill

    The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear.
    Herbert Agar

    434-1

  3. #3
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Had problem getting the link thru, but got it -
    pasted into Google and let that find it - Lord I DO LIKE Google !

    http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1927073...Maker1%262.pdf

    Google could find the Dead Sea Scrolls and give you a map !

    Those are some darned good plans ! Holy Mackerel !
    Even has how to calculate the size disc to cut before shaping it to a cup.

    Thank you so much, "joesig" !

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 04-05-2013 at 07:16 PM.
    Ignorance is expensive.
    Teach your children what you have learned.
    Give them a good head start in life.
    It is your duty to pass on what you have learned,
    else we will be no different than frogs.
    Your only problem - getting them to listen !
    Ribbit.....ribbit.....ribbit....

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    arjacobson's Avatar
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    I have made up bunches of these. Pm me if you want some tips on how to do the various operations. Basically Drill and then bore the top first. Then machine the cutting stem to just fit the bored hole. Without taking the stem out of the lathe drill and bore the short I.D. When everything is to size and polished up nice you can take the stem out of the lathe and flip it end for end. Drill for the clearance(so the checks will fall out freely) I then make the short forming spud that fits in the top pc. I use a bandsaw and watch the cut carefully for the material slot. A flashlight helps with this.. drill and tap for setscrews.. Set your forming spud to about .010 above bandsawed slot.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Well, arjacobson, I think I now understand how this punch works
    BUT I am fairly sure that my Novice Understanding of my new Lathe would
    not get this made.

    This thing cuts the big disk on the upward stroke then carries the disk up to the piston
    which swages the cup shape pushing it down and then drops down the Punch Tube and out
    the bottom......took me a while to get this....I am a Chemist, not a machinist.



    A very clever design !

    How did he cut that cone shape at the bottom ? Is it necessary ? Wouldn't a milled
    out side slot work the same?

    Not too confident I can make it though.

    Basically, I would like to make the Punch for the Primary Disks - kind of like
    I made punches for Card Disks to place over BP in BP Cartridges using an RCBS Press.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...or-45-70-Discs
    .....or
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...agant-Revolver



    Using 7/8" Threaded Rod and pushing Aluminum Pop Can strips into the punch.

    Once I have a Butt-Load of Pop Can Disks made, then I was thinking of
    resetting my RCBS Press with the second punch which would form the cups
    by swaging the pre-cut disks - also using 7/8" threaded rod.



    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 04-05-2013 at 11:35 PM.
    Ignorance is expensive.
    Teach your children what you have learned.
    Give them a good head start in life.
    It is your duty to pass on what you have learned,
    else we will be no different than frogs.
    Your only problem - getting them to listen !
    Ribbit.....ribbit.....ribbit....

  6. #6
    Boolit Master


    blikseme300's Avatar
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    DoctorBill,

    The cone shape is imparted by the end of the drill bit. Don't underestimate your abilities and capability to learn how to do these things. Ask away here when you are unsure or are stuck. These are quite a number of folks here that will help you.
    Liberalism is the triumph of emotion over intellect, but masquerading as the reverse.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Doctor Bill:

    I made a very simple gas check maker that works quite well and is easy to make. it is a little basic and some might say crude... but it works well.

    info here:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/atta...2&d=1335386592

    Look at posts #36, #37 and #40 by edsmith for his simple checkmaker and here:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ck-maker/page3

    post #44 for my simple check maker.

    Like I said, simple, maybe crude but perfectly functional and I use aluminum from old gutters at 0.019" thick ~ with the hammer, one can apply enough "whack" that the thick aluminum is not a problem and simply extrudes a deeper cup.

    Ed provided very good info for gas check and shank sizes in his write up.

    I am sure you will be able to make one of these and be producing good checks in no time!

    Longbow

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBill View Post
    My new Lathe and Mini-Milling Machine are both calling to me to be used !

    I just bought a Marlin Model of 1895 45-70 Lever Rifle, and until Obama comes for it, I'd
    like to load some LEE Cast .459 Bullets with Gas Checks (Caps).

    However, I thought a GREAT project for my Lathe would be to make my own Gas Cap Puncher
    and use it with Aluminum Pop Can Metal (Cheaper than a Washington Politician).

    So - has anyone made their own ?

    I know the FreeChex III guy sells (sold) them, but I want's ta make it myself !

    Any plans, diagrams or photos available ?

    DoctorBill
    If that is the hollow base one then appying a check is asking for "trouble".

  9. #9
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    I made this punch to punch 1 3/16 holes in aluminum so long ago I don't even remember what it was used for in the first place (hate that because its the start of CRS).

    Its pneumatic and operates by foot pedal. It uses dies that I had and the band clamp holds the bottom part of the die in a pipe welded to the base that has a saw cut in it so the clamp can tighten it and the bolt holds the top die in the adapter to the ram.

    Sorry for the sideways photo.

    It would work to punch the disk then swap dies to make the cup.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #10
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    This is what I am making this Gas Check Punch for.

    Cast bullets from 0.457 LEE C457-500-F for use in my Marlin Model of 1895 Lever Rifle.



    The calculations are in the photo.

    I could probably get away with using a 5/8 inch drill. No ?

    I will be using Pop Can Metal which is 0.004" where I live.

    DoctorBill

    PS - PLEASE NOTE - This is a long and rambling Thread, BUT after a
    while there are discussions about THREADING - which may be useful
    to Newbies at Lathe workings. (added way after starting this Thread).
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 04-13-2013 at 03:24 PM.
    Ignorance is expensive.
    Teach your children what you have learned.
    Give them a good head start in life.
    It is your duty to pass on what you have learned,
    else we will be no different than frogs.
    Your only problem - getting them to listen !
    Ribbit.....ribbit.....ribbit....

  11. #11
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Several Questions

    1. Is ALL Aluminum Beverage Can metal of the same thickness ?

    Aluminum Pop Cans measure out to 0.004" thick.
    Since I don't drink Beer in cans, I don't know about Beer Can Aluminum.

    If Beer Can Aluminum is 0.006, perhaps, I 'could' start drinking Beer from Cans.....

    And a thought just came into my head....

    2. Would a card disk under the bullet not keep the burning powder from zapping
    the lead bullet sufficiently well ?

    It is what I was doing for Paper Patched Bullets !

    Is this Aluminum Bullet End Cap really necessary ?

    3. Why do we make these punches with the weakest portion on top ?
    The force is against the weakened upper slot where most of the metal
    has been cut thru to feed the stock metal or card !

    Why not invert the punch and use the weakest part of the punch as the "guide"
    for the ram ? You don't HAVE to screw the DIE in from the top (Tradition?)



    Here you would screw this into the (RCBS) Press from the bottom side
    and the Punch would go into the RAM slot and the force would be against
    the (now) Top of the slot and the weak bottom portion would act as the
    "guide" for the Puncher Rod.

    This way would allow one to make punches with thinner outer walls.

    The disks should stack up and come out the top.

    I "PhotoShop'ed" this idea using a Card Punch I made for my Martin-Henry
    BP Cartridges. I think it should work and be much stronger.



    One could also Mill, Grind or Saw out both sides leaving TWO metal pillars to
    support the guide section - of course you'd have to cut your metal or
    card material into strips to punch it.



    Am I way out in Left Field with this - do I make any sense ?

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 04-07-2013 at 06:41 PM.
    Ignorance is expensive.
    Teach your children what you have learned.
    Give them a good head start in life.
    It is your duty to pass on what you have learned,
    else we will be no different than frogs.
    Your only problem - getting them to listen !
    Ribbit.....ribbit.....ribbit....

  12. #12
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Where did everybody go ?

    I appear to be all alone.....

    DoctorBill
    Ignorance is expensive.
    Teach your children what you have learned.
    Give them a good head start in life.
    It is your duty to pass on what you have learned,
    else we will be no different than frogs.
    Your only problem - getting them to listen !
    Ribbit.....ribbit.....ribbit....

  13. #13
    Boolit Master


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    We are still here. Life keeps getting in the way of our hobbies... I am interested in making a GC tool since I can and my stock of 30cal is running low with no stock at any of the retailers. I like the design which will make the check in one stroke. I will probably order material this week to be able to start some time next week as I will be out of town through the coming weekend on business.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    blikseme300 - The dual function punch looks nice, but methinks it is a bit
    beyond my abilities right now.
    I am just getting used to taking more than 0.002" cuts on my Lathe !
    Actually did 0.005" yesterday making the Punch portion.

    My machinist friend grins at me when I say that - he likes 0.015" cuts or even more !
    The swarf flies around and comes off in great swirls when he Lathes !
    Me - I'm C. S. at this point.

    I am concerned that a 5/8" drill hole will punch an Aluminum Disk too large
    for these LEE 0.457 Cast Bullet Gas Checks.

    I don't have a 39/64" or 15.5 mm drill to make them a smidgen smaller, just an
    old 5/8" Silver & Deming Drill.....

    Just about have the Punch body done - need to 5/8 drill it through and then
    thread it for 1.25 x 12 for the RCBS Press.



    I think I will Mill out the side slots as mentioned in my previous post.
    Haven't Milled anything yet....

    Then I need to make the Punch Ram to punch out the disks.

    I 'think' I have threading down....scary, but I've done two threadings and
    they work OK.

    After that, I will make the cup forming punch plate and puncher.
    Wish I had a source of Aluminum slightly bigger than 0.004" pop can metal.
    I have some 0.015 Sheet Aluminum - too thick.

    I spend a lot of time thinking about stuff I try to make 'cause I have screwed
    up too many things by going too fast !

    Lot of Fun though !

    DoctorBill

    PS - Been saving my iron swarf and making Iron (Fe) Oxide (Rust) out of it
    by adding water in an open plastic bag. Rusts fast.

    Also saving my Aluminum swarf. (or pop can metal cut up fine)
    Mix one weight of Aluminum chips and two weights of DRY Rust (Iron Oxide),
    mix well and ignite the mix with a torch. THERMITE ! Stand Back !

    Will work with most Metal Oxides.
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 04-08-2013 at 08:13 PM.
    Ignorance is expensive.
    Teach your children what you have learned.
    Give them a good head start in life.
    It is your duty to pass on what you have learned,
    else we will be no different than frogs.
    Your only problem - getting them to listen !
    Ribbit.....ribbit.....ribbit....

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

    arjacobson's Avatar
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    Use a smaller drill and bore to size using a boring bar.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Too Late ! Done. Besides - it is 2.8" long !

    Just finishing making it look pretty.....



    In case someone asks, I don't have a dead or live Center that will take 5/8"......

    DoctorBill
    Ignorance is expensive.
    Teach your children what you have learned.
    Give them a good head start in life.
    It is your duty to pass on what you have learned,
    else we will be no different than frogs.
    Your only problem - getting them to listen !
    Ribbit.....ribbit.....ribbit....

  17. #17
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    Them there Lee boolits thay are designed for gaschecks right?

    Then im afraid i have to spoil your work, because they will need a check of normal dimensions ie.



    I just measured a Hornady check and it is .017" thickness.

    If i take your data then:
    Boolit shank = .425"
    Pop can = .004"
    Finished check = .425 + 2 x .004 = .433" That is no where near enough for a 45 cal boolit!

    Standard check = .425 + 2 x .017 = .459"

    There is no point in applying a check that is to small, it will never scrape against the barrel and do any gas sealing at all.
    Last edited by Chicken Thief; 04-08-2013 at 09:50 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Chicken Thief - Yes, the Bullets are designed for Gas Checks and the base
    is 0.425" diameter. The "skirt" is ~ 0.10" high.

    What I have made so far is still OK, I would just need to cut thicker Disks.

    The Cap Forming Die dimensions depends on the Aluminum Sheet thickness,
    however, and I have not made THAT part yet.....

    I do have a "Roll" of Sheet Aluminum that is thicker - if I remember, it is
    0.015" thick.

    Wonder how hard it is to punch ?

    Some thoughts come to my fevered, Lead fumes damaged brain......

    I thought that Edward Smith advertised on e-bay that his die used Pop Can
    Aluminum to make Gas Checks.

    Going to his pdf document - I see he calls for 0.016" Aluminum Sheet for
    45 cal.

    Also, from what I have read, the high heat capacity of lead makes it unlikely that
    any will get hot fast enough to melt when fired out of a gun.

    So someone might ask, "Then why in the world are you making Gas Checks ?"

    Because I am not sure that gunpowder has time to melt the end of the bullet !
    AND - I needed a project to do.

    Now.....how many people have shot off Cast Bullets w/o Gas Checks and recovered
    the bullet to SEE if the end had any melting damage ?

    If anyone knows of DATA (not hearsay, word of mouth, or opinions) showing that
    Cast Bullets get their butts melted, please reply here with the links or photocopies.
    FACTUAL Data sure would be nice - so much is OPINION, not facts...."sounds like
    a good idea..."

    Why would LEE sell Molds for 50 Cal Lead Slugs w/o a skirt for Gas Caps if the
    end suffers heat damage.

    Chicken Thief - Thanks for the information ! Not sure this won't work though.
    If it protects the Bullet enough to get it out the barrel w/o damage (?).
    I do want to find better Gas Cap Aluminum, though (cheap).

    Lastly - If none of this works, I still had fun making the stuff !

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 04-09-2013 at 12:41 AM.
    Ignorance is expensive.
    Teach your children what you have learned.
    Give them a good head start in life.
    It is your duty to pass on what you have learned,
    else we will be no different than frogs.
    Your only problem - getting them to listen !
    Ribbit.....ribbit.....ribbit....

  19. #19
    Boolit Master


    DLCTEX's Avatar
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    The gas check serves to prevent gas cutting of the boolit, not melting from heat. It also is more resistant to stripping by the rifling, which requires a tight fit to resist spinning on the boolit.

  20. #20
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    Doc Bill

    Think of it this way:
    The powder burn occurs in @1 millisecond ot 1/1000 of a second.
    Take an acetylene torch (3500degC ~ 6330degF) and pass it over your hand as fast as you possibly can. You wont get burnt and that is way more than a millisecond! The hairs will perish but no burn.

    What the check does is this:
    It acts like a jacket and will perform a wital function as a gas seal in high power loads. For this to work it is imperative that it fits the bore 100%.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check