Dipping makes better bullets that a bottom pour pot but why?

[M-Tecs]

I think we need a different forum for people that cast for handguns and those that cast for rifles.
The two groups often cast with different techniques, alloys and have different criteria for a good bullet.

BPCR shooters want MOA results to 400 yards or more.

The only argument that I see is the ladle pour only casters are not willing to accept that some bottom pour casters can produce equal bullets. I cast for and shoot BPCR out to 1,000 yards using both methods. I am a toolmaker by trade and I understand precision inspection better than most.

I never have nor will I be able to run a 4 minute mile but I do acknowledge that others can. Why is it so hard for some to acknowledge that good technique equals good bullets with both methods?

[mrbukers]

That is accurate, lead does not vapor at melting temps. Of course good ventilation should be used, lead is not the only thing in your melt. Your odds of getting any lead poisoning at melting temps is quite remote. If you have elevated levels of lead in your system you ingested it one way or another. I highly recommend washing your hands after handling lead and no thumb sucking until you do.

Rick

No, you're still wrong. Lead doesn't vaporize at a rate that you can see with your eyes, but some of the lead at the surface may have enough energy to vaporize. It's called evaporation. The rate may be very low, but it will still happen. The rate increases as you approach the boiling point. I don't have a phase diagram for lead handy, but it might even sublimate in a vacuum. Not that that is useful to this discussion, but telling people that you can't get lead vapor at casting temperatures is both incorrect and can lead to unhealthy practices.

[cbrick]

One of the things most of us on this forum have worked hard on is stopping the spread of old wives tales. Please don't sign on here and perpetuate them. If you wish to believe them by all means go right ahead but don't spread them here.

Lead does not evaporate at normal casting temps. You have considerably more to worry about with antimony and arsenic than from the lead. Safety precautions such as good ventilation are preached constantly on this forum and no one, least of all me is suggesting unhealthy casting procedures. I handle lead nearly daily, I have my blood lead level checked yearly and it's never been higher than low normal for an adult, I don't think what I do or suggest to others is unhealthy.

Rick

[Texantothecore]

Not possible! Tin will not - cannot separate and drift to the top of the pot from a lack of fluxing or stirring or anything else. The only loss of tin will be that which is already at the surface of the melt and in contact with oxygen which will oxidize.

Rick

Thanks for the clarification. I am not sure where I got that piece of incorrect info.

[detox]

No ladle and no fluxing of lead with the Magma Master Caster. Listen to the fan blowing to cool the sprue. Look at bucket of water to slow fall and harden boolits. Notice lead temperature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYdNiMuenUU

This is also very interesting. Cleaning and fluxing of lead info for bottom pot pourers. White beeswax for fluxing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfmRXffM1Qs

[detox]

The last time i casted boollits i melted my ingots and fluxed with small piece of parafin in seperate pot. Then i poured melt into my clean RCBS bottom pour pot before casting boollits (i never fluxed while using the RCBS bottom pour). I also kept temp around 650-700 degrees. This produced very clean and well filled out boollits. For a more square base boollit loosen sprue plate so that it swings freely and vents better. Do not press sprue plate against spout...leave about 1/4" distance between when pouring

If you do not have a second pot, you can melt your clean ingots in bottom pour, but do not flux. The ingots and pot must be very clean before casting. Then cast away.....

Fluxing in the Lee Drip-o-matic may be the cause of the drip.....maybe? Dirt in between seat and plunger.

[mrbukers]

One of the things most of us on this forum have worked hard on is stopping the spread of old wives tales. Please don't sign on here and perpetuate them. If you wish to believe them by all means go right ahead but don't spread them here.

That's unfortunate considering you are wrong. Any liquid with an exposed surface to air can evaporate. Liquid metal is no exception. You learn this in any introductory chemistry class.

Even if you don't believe that there is observational data that shows that lead vapor exists at normal casting temperatures. I invite you to take a look at this publication (http://www.oecd-nea.org/science/repo...f/chapter2.pdf) which shows a collection of 5 studies conducted over the past 50 years or so regarding the saturated vapor pressure of molten lead. All 5 studies agree, and the saturated vapor pressure at 700 F is around 1.0e-5 Pa. That number is not zero. Non-zero vapor pressure means that there is lead vapor at that temperature.

The section covering vapor pressure starts on page 41 and the plot showing vapor pressure vs temperature is on page 43.

[badbob454]

when your boolits come out perfect every time once the mold is up to temp , how can a ladel do any better? my ol drippy works great , and i never get dirt in my pour as lead is heavier than dirt and the dirt floats to the top ... i never drain my pot completely so the spout never sees any dirt , it is a matter of choice or whatever floats your boat ...

[btroj]

That's unfortunate considering you are wrong. Any liquid with an exposed surface to air can evaporate. Liquid metal is no exception. You learn this in any introductory chemistry class.

Even if you don't believe that there is observational data that shows that lead vapor exists at normal casting temperatures. I invite you to take a look at this publication (http://www.oecd-nea.org/science/repo...f/chapter2.pdf) which shows a collection of 5 studies conducted over the past 50 years or so regarding the saturated vapor pressure of molten lead. All 5 studies agree, and the saturated vapor pressure at 700 F is around 1.0e-5 Pa. That number is not zero. Non-zero vapor pressure means that there is lead vapor at that temperature.

The section covering vapor pressure starts on page 41 and the plot showing vapor pressure vs temperature is on page 43.

Technically you are correct. Lead at 700 had a vapor pressure of .00001 Pa. Water, at 37 C, which is body temp, has a vapor pressure of roughly 6200 Pa. Tell me which number is relevant.

At normal casting temps the chance of breathing in "lead vapors" and getting lead poisoning is basically nil. Want to avoid lead poisoning? Good basic hygiene. Don't eat, drink, or smoke while casting. Wash hands very well when done casting. After casting wash clothes well. All this is because you pick up lead oxides on your clothes and hands. Lead by itself does not absorb well into the body even of ingested. The oxides and worse yet acetate is much more easily absorbed. avoid the dust from primers, lots of lead salts in those.

Making technical arguements that lack relevance doesn't cut it here. Many here have been casting for decades, not years. Many have blood levels checked regularly. Molten lead is not a danger, unless you get burned.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill give a big amen to that!

The only argument that I see is the ladle pour only casters are not willing to accept that some bottom pour casters can produce equal bullets. I cast for and shoot BPCR out to 1,000 yards using both methods. I am a toolmaker by trade and I understand precision inspection better than most.

I never have nor will I be able to run a 4 minute mile but I do acknowledge that others can. Why is it so hard for some to acknowledge that good technique equals good bullets with both methods?

[Lloyd Smale]

the wives tales on here will never stop. All it takes is some gun writer that hasnt casted a 1/10 of the bullets that some here has or some outdated publication like lymans casting manual to say that something is so and act like they got that info from God himself. Things like overfluxing because people think its the only way to keep tin mixed with lead. Misconceptions about how people get lead poisoning, which by the way ive been treated for and got from eating and smoking and poor handling practices. People stil think a bullet needs to be soft enough to bump up even in a good gun which is the one that trips my trigger the most. What about some who wont use wws because the impuritys in them wear our barrels and even this one that bottom pour pots cant make quality bullets

Technically you are correct. Lead at 700 had a vapor pressure of .00001 Pa. Water, at 37 C, which is body temp, has a vapor pressure of roughly 6200 Pa. Tell me which number is relevant.

At normal casting temps the chance of breathing in "lead vapors" and getting lead poisoning is basically nil. Want to avoid lead poisoning? Good basic hygiene. Don't eat, drink, or smoke while casting. Wash hands very well when done casting. After casting wash clothes well. All this is because you pick up lead oxides on your clothes and hands. Lead by itself does not absorb well into the body even of ingested. The oxides and worse yet acetate is much more easily absorbed. avoid the dust from primers, lots of lead salts in those.

Making technical arguements that lack relevance doesn't cut it here. Many here have been casting for decades, not years. Many have blood levels checked regularly. Molten lead is not a danger, unless you get burned.

[btroj]

Yep. Most of the garbage about shooting cast comes from people who don't shoot them. Imagine that.

I am not an old wife so I don't believe in old wives tales.

Oh, I shoot cast in micro groove barrels quite well, thank you.

[Jeff Michel]

I primarly use a bottom pour. Maybe I'm imagining it but for 6.5, some 7mm, the bottom pour creates a turbidity which leads to voids/wrinkles. I almost have to lay my molds at 45 degrees to the spout to avoid this when I pour. When I use a ladle, this disappears. I think that a ladle will always have a place on my bench.

[cbrick]

Technically you are correct. Lead at 700 had a vapor pressure of .00001 Pa. Water, at 37 C, which is body temp, has a vapor pressure of roughly 6200 Pa. Tell me which number is relevant.

At normal casting temps the chance of breathing in "lead vapors" and getting lead poisoning is basically nil. Want to avoid lead poisoning? Good basic hygiene. Don't eat, drink, or smoke while casting. Wash hands very well when done casting. After casting wash clothes well. All this is because you pick up lead oxides on your clothes and hands. Lead by itself does not absorb well into the body even of ingested. The oxides and worse yet acetate is much more easily absorbed. avoid the dust from primers, lots of lead salts in those.

Making technical arguements that lack relevance doesn't cut it here. Many here have been casting for decades, not years. Many have blood levels checked regularly. Molten lead is not a danger, unless you get burned.

That is correct and accurate. If you place your face over a 700 degree lead pot and breath deeply you would get very, very little lead. One of the problems is that lead is rarely the only thing in the melt. Many people believe that lead is radioactive and it is just sitting there eagerly waiting to jump out and get you & this belief is perpetuated even more in this day & age by the greenies.

For anyone that exercises both common sense and good hygiene there is in reality little to worry about with lead. You will get far more lead oxide on your hands from handling ingots than from breathing around the melt. Lead does not absorb through the skin so keep your hands off food etc and out of your mouth until you wash them. Use extra caution around your tumbler, that is a far worse cause of lead contamination than the melt in your pot.

Now that we have turned this thread into a lead safety thread let's go back where it started - Bottom pour vs ladle casting. I don't understand what/where the problem is, I cast both ways and have for years. I get good boolits from both methods though more and more lately I prefer the ladle, not for better boolits but rather it's just more interesting to me. That is a personal preference though and has nothing to do with better boolits.

Rick

[btroj]

I bottom pours because it works. I cast very few bullets over 250 gr and then only for my Marlin 45-70 and those are 420. I don't shoot long range BPCR so I don't care what works "best" for them.

I do what works for me. My feeling is that everyone sould whatever makes them happy.

Rick, common sense ain't so common anymore, is it?

[Kull]

I get good boolits from both methods though more and more lately I prefer the ladle, not for better boolits but rather it's just more interesting to me. That is a personal preference though and has nothing to do with better boolits.

Rick

I've never used a bottom pour. My first pot was, is, a Waage and I find I enjoy the ladle for the same reasons. The act of scooping up molten lead is just more interesting and fun to me than what I imagine using a bottom pour would be like.

[mrbukers]

I am very disappointed with the reactions in this thread. I am neither trying to scare people away from casting nor implying that if you cast you will get always get lead poisoning. I have only been casting for about a year - does that mean that my scientific knowledge backed by evidence from several sources means nothing compared to your vast years of experience?

Technically I am correct about lead vapors. That is the ONLY type of correct. The vapor pressure is much much lower than that of water at the same temperature. The difference is that your body is designed to ingest water and has mechanisms for getting rid of it when you have too much. There are no such mechanisms for lead. Once it's in your body, it will stick around for a long time. That means that any and all lead ingested, even at very small amounts, is relevant. It's fine if you don't believe that yourself in spite of the evidence, but you do the community a disservice by spreading false information.

[btroj]

Ok, I have a BS in Chemistry and am a Registered Pharmacist.

I think I know a bit about chemistry and the human body.

Elemental lead is poorly absorbed by any means. The various lead salts are far more dangerous as they much more readily cross mucous membranes.

We are NOT doing a disservice, we are dispelling a common myth.

Many people with far more scientific knowledge than myself have looked into the "lead vapor" issue and found it to be of no real concern.

I will use my knowledge and ability to reason to dispel myths like this every time I come across them. Knowledge is much more than reading a scientific paper or chart and garnering a piece of information.

We can either use reason or we can take everything at face value and create panic.

[cbrick]

One member here has a PhD in heavy metals and has the same misinformation that we have said, he even wrote a book on the subject, buy hey what could he know huh.

Since your lead is laying in wait to get you perhaps casting isn't for you, much too risky you know. Also, there are forums that thrive on cast bullet old wives tales, perhaps they would like to hear it. You have 4 posts here and every one of them is an attempt to put forth an old wives tale that with nothing more than a little common sense and the normal safety precautions is insignificant. I for one would like to see you contribute something worthwhile.

On another subject, do you shoot at an indoor range?

Rick

[btroj]

Oh Rick, don't go there.

I don't need to know the vapor pressure of lead styphenate at powder ignition temps.

I have been casting for 30 years. Blood level is just fine. Maybe my body is just too dang dumb to know it is poisoned?