45-70 BP vs Smokeless

[crabo]

Compare and contrast black powder and smokless in a modern rifle like the Thompson Centers. (sounds like an English assignment for school)

I am toying with the idea of a 45-70 in one of the Thompson Center rifles. I have a friend that shoots a lot of BPRC. Any advantages of shooting black powder in a modern gun, other than the smoke and fun factor? Does the BP work better at long range?

Am I crazy?

Thanks,

Crabo

[Bent Ramrod]

The low-tech nuances you learn in the course of finding a proper black powder load and making it perform might in some cases transfer to greater attention to detail in your higher-tech smokeless loading, and perhaps some benefits gained thereby.

Most of the people who like black powder loaded black powder cartridges for hunting are doing it for tradition's sake. I guess you could follow that if you wish, but generally the traditionalists follow through with replication of the original guns as well as the loads.

Of course, some competitions require that black powder cartridges be loaded with black powder. These games also typically demand original rifles or replica duplicates. A T/C with an outside hammer might get into a semiformal club match, where they need to fill the relays, but it would probably be disallowed at any big match.

It would certainly be an advantage in a doomsday scenario where all you could get was black powder. Someone with a Diesel generator waiting Armageddon in cosmolene and a basement full of hoarded toilet paper probably would need a black-powder loading for his survival rifle, and a method of making the powder itself.

Of course, there are those folks who opine that smokeless powder is merely a passing fad. If you think that smokeless will soon be a historical curiosity like Nehru jackets and mood rings, I guess that would be another reason.

Other than these (and the fun factor) I can't see any other benefits to loading a modern rifle with blackpowder loads.

[omgb]

If you take the time to learn the process and you use quality components, BP is going to turn in far better groups beyond 200 yards than you are going to get with smokeless. Now, having said that, lots of guys are going to disagree. However, those of us who routinely use BP cartridge guns will tell you that BP is the way to go for long range accuracy. At 100 yards and less, the difference is not so great. The key is the velocity variation. With BP, shot to shot variation runs 17fps or less! Try that with smokeless and you'll find it's impossible to duplicate. At extrema ranges, that small variation pays off big time. Every second that bullet is in flight the wind is acting on it. change that time of flight, (TOF) by just a few 10ths of a second and groups will open significantly.

The trick is that BP takes some skill and some attention to detail. Every shot down the barrel potentially changes the dynamics due to powder fouling. All of this can be ameliorated but, you must know the tricks and you must perform them the same way each time. Therein lies the challenge.

[kodiak1]

Well put omgb. X2
Ken.

[35remington]

I don't find it particularly hard to duplicate the low extreme spreads of blackpowder using smokeless loads. The key is using a heavy bullet (as the blackpowder shooters do) and loading it to high loading density. If the smokeless powder itself does not fill the case, dacron fiber may be employed to do the same thing.

Low extreme spreads are as simple as that. No alchemy or "black powder only" to it.

Fouling isn't quite the problem with smokeless. While neither powder type may own the absolute key to accuracy, and small details matter regarding accuracy, certainly smokeless offers higher velocities. Assuming your rifle is up to it, of course.

[45 2.1]

If you take the time to learn the process and you use quality components, BP is going to turn in far better groups beyond 200 yards than you are going to get with smokeless.With BP, shot to shot variation runs 17fps or less! Try that with smokeless and you'll find it's impossible to duplicate.
The trick is that BP takes some skill and some attention to detail. Every shot down the barrel potentially changes the dynamics due to powder fouling. All of this can be ameliorated but, you must know the tricks and you must perform them the same way each time. Therein lies the challenge.

I've gotten 0.30 MOA 4570 Smokeless groups at far further than 200 yds. Since you opine that its impossible to beat BP loads, lets see what your doing in terms of MOA.

[omgb]

Told ya, guys were going to disagree. I wish I had some tragets handy to report on what i've done, but honestly, my results wouldn't hold a candle to what Kelly Roos or Kenny W turn in routinely, they simply are better shots than I am.

The deal is, at BP velocities in BP cases, BP works better. Now honestly, with smokeless in cartridges like the 300 Win Mag, the higher velocity and shortened TOF makes for some really impressive 1000 yard groups that do equal or exceed BPCR groups. There are simply fewer variables that tend to make for higher scores.

But, using BP cases at BP velocities, BP is going to turn in the better scores and tighter groups. Unfortunately, I do not have the evidence at hand to back this statement up. I moved a month ago and things are all over the place. But my experience both in my own guns and observing others in the BPCR sport lead me to the conclusions I've offered. But, without the evidence at hand, my statements are worth what you paid for them.

[omgb]

Point of clarification, I said the shot to shot velocity variation was impossible to duplicate with smokeless not the sub M.O.A. groupings. I have no doubt you have acheived the groups you report.

[45 2.1]

Point of clarification, I said the shot to shot velocity variation was impossible to duplicate with smokeless not the sub M.O.A. groupings. I have no doubt you have acheived the groups you report.

Talk is cheap...!!! Low single digits for smokeless in shot to shot variation is quite possible IF you put the time in to find out. Something the BP guys do also, but it seems to be something the smokeless guys don't do. There is a BIG difference between watching someone else and doing it yourself. If you can do it with BP, it can be done with smokeless, except for the stinky smoke deal along with nasty cases.

As for your claims, why don't BPCR shoots allow smokeless powder if they can beat smokeless groups at long range. Gives you something to think about. Unfair advantage maybe.

[45 2.1]

Told ya, guys were going to disagree. I wish I had some tragets handy to report on what i've done, but honestly, my results wouldn't hold a candle to what Kelly Roos or Kenny W turn in routinely, they simply are better shots than I am. Your welcome to post their group sizes in terms of MOA if you want.

The deal is, at BP velocities in BP cases, BP works better. Now honestly, with smokeless in cartridges like the 300 Win Mag, the higher velocity and shortened TOF makes for some really impressive 1000 yard groups that do equal or exceed BPCR groups. There are simply fewer variables that tend to make for higher scores. My groups were shot with a Navy Arms rolling block in 4570 with a Lyman 17A front with Shaver crosshair insert and a Parts Unknown Soule with their version of the Hadley eyecup. Boolit was the Saeco 1881 version of the Government 500 gr. RN. Bottleneck cartridges are quite unfair in comparisons of powder types here. I've worked with BP for a long time and it hasn't compared to smokeless in my rifles yet.

[felix]

Normal black powder (no exotic oxidizers) simply requires grain proximity for a smooth burn curve, whereas smokeless depends upon container pressure for same. Get those two corresponding factors just right, and you should not see one iota of difference at the paper target. But that is the challenge entirely: getting those two factors exactly the same for the same boolit-gun. ... felix

[August]

Notice the abstract nature of the above discussion....

Smokeless works great, with low ES numbers, in modern cartridges -- like the WSMs for instance.

Black Powder works great in the cartridges that were designed around it -- like the 45-70.

The 45-70 was used exclusively with black powder for over a quarter of a century.

Why mess with perfection?

Having said that, I have a cowboy buddy who has worked up some very accurate 45/70 loads using Unique.

[35remington]

Duplicating the low extreme spreads of blackpowder, as I said, is quite simple. My #1 has a pretty short throat; all that is needed is a heavy bullet, seated deeply, and a powder charge with good loading density using 4198, 5744, 4759 or some such. Dacron if necessary.

It is quite easy to duplicate blackpowder ES; simply duplicate the loading density, which is no great cross to bear. Don't bet that a suitably chambered .45-70 using smokeless loads will not match a blackpowder loaded gun at any range, with more velocity potential to boot.

I've heard the BP only shooters repeating the "low extreme spreads only with black" statement many times. Trouble is, it ain't true. If I can do it, anybody can.

A heavy bullet combined with restricted case capacity will produce low extreme spreads in velocity nearly every time if the handloader knows what he is doing and selects the right loading combinations.

The problem with the statement that BP is the only powder that produces low ES is that they tried smokeless in the usual super long throated BP rifle set up for blackpowder. Give me my preferences in chambering and a low ES smokeless gun is very much in the cards.

Which means, I guess, that BP guys can still claim their powder is dirtier by far. That I concede readily.

[Dale53]

I suggest, cheerfully - not intended to be mean spirited, that this is a pointless argument. I have personally had excellent results with both BP and smokeless in the venerable 45/70. It is certainly good fun to take one position or the other but if facts are what you want - either will do a FINE job with most of the old black powder cartridges.

I prefer traditional black (Swiss in my favorite) in my single shots and prefer smokeless in my Marlin lever action. It all depends on my use for the particular rifle and load.

I would have done some deer hunting with BPCR's but Ohio does not permit deer hunting with rifles (only with muzzle loaders). So, I have little experience with BPCR while hunting. I do my deer hunting with the revolver.

Dale53

[WBH]

Maybe the reason they don't allow "white" powder in the BPCR matches is because they are BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE matches.

Personally my BPCR's shoot only BP, I like to think I know how to treat a lady that is almost 135 years old. I do have a chicken load that shoots well with 5744 in a repro gun. But that's all. I just like using what was intended for them.

That white powder is just a fad anyway.

[JesterGrin_1]

Well there you have it from both sides of the coin. You can attain fine accuracy from Smokeless or Black Powder. It just depends on what you are used to or are willing to work on to gain the best potential accuracy from the weapon that you are using. Some like and tend to stick to Black Powder as they have worked very hard to get a load that works well for what they are doing. And will continue to tweak the loads all of the time. Mainly this is due to BPCR shooting as most require the use of Black Powder with no smokeless loads allowed. Some will allow Duplex loads but most will not due to safety reasons as they may state. As they do try and replicate how and what the rifle used back when they were originally designed.

Now if you are not heavy into BPCR and just use the rifle for recreation as well as hunting and some target to make sure it goes where you aim it. I feel smokeless would be the way to go if you are willing to find the correct load and loading sequence needed to attain the accuracy that you desire from your weapon. And if so 45 2.1 really would be the person to talk this over with from what I have heard from others on the forum.

As for myself I have a Cimarron Quigley Sharps in 45-70. It is a fine looking rifle both in fit and finish and very accurate. Well up to 600 meters as I have not done much shooting further than that. Only a few times out to 1000 meters. And I use Black Powder as that is what was allowed. But when I have time I will be sure to hit up 45 2.1 to get some information on the best way to go smokeless as I will mostly use the rifle for hunting or recreational use. As the Range is just way to far to drive. A 200 mile round trip to a range is a bit much lol.

[SharpsShooter]

I suggest, cheerfully - not intended to be mean spirited, that this is a pointless argument. I have personally had excellent results with both BP and smokeless in the venerable 45/70. It is certainly good fun to take one position or the other but if facts are what you want - either will do a FINE job with most of the old black powder cartridges.

I prefer traditional black (Swiss in my favorite) in my single shots and prefer smokeless in my Marlin lever action. It all depends on my use for the particular rifle and load.

I would have done some deer hunting with BPCR's but Ohio does not permit deer hunting with rifles (only with muzzle loaders). So, I have little experience with BPCR while hunting. I do my deer hunting with the revolver.

Dale53

I feed mine in the exact same way except I use Goex Cartridge. I have hunted with BPCR during regular rifle season for whitetails and will continue to do so. (works dandy) The smokeless loads I have worked up over the years will shoot with the black with equal accuracy. It all comes down to what you plan to use the rifle for in the first place.


SS

[sabre85rdj]

I don't mean to highjack the threat but my question is in the same vane as the original question. I've been shooting an Armi and a Pedersoli Sharps in a 45-70 caliber. I shoot with my daughter at the Quigley so I've stayed with smokeless powder just for convenience sake. My load uses 22.3gr of 5744, a cardboard wad over the powder and corn meal to fill the remaining volume under a 535gr postel lead bullet. The round is very accurate and consistent in both rifles. Velocity tops out at 1200 ft/sec +/- 12 ft/sec. At 100 yds, 5 shot groups are 1/2-3/4 inch. Long range performance is good too...on a good day it can put 8 shots on a target within 12 inches at 530 yds. So what's the problem you ask? Well, I got a super deal on a Shiloh Sharps #3 Sporter and it doesn't like the load at all. At 100 yds, groups are 3-4 inches. I'm pretty much at the minimum recommended load for 5744 powder so I think my only option is to go up in powder charge or switch powders. So I was wondering if anyone has a similar experience or a recommended starting point?

[country gent]

I will start of by saying that every rifle is a rifle unto its own, each has its likes and dislikes. Chambers can abd do make a big diffrence in how loads perform. My CPA and both C Sharps have the lead off the case mouth no throats to speak of, About 1/3 of the front friving band is all that can be out of the case. The pendersoli has a little throat between case mouth and leade. All do well with traditional Black powder, I have used goex, goex cartridge, swiss and Olde ensford in them. Accuracy is very good and one of the tricks is finding the powder compression you powder becomes effient at and the rifle likes. I have tried some of the subs and found them harder to clean than BP and touchier to get where you want to be velocity and pressure wise. I havent done much with actual smokless loads. When loading small charges of powder care does need to be taken to gaurd against double charging a case. Another issue is air space in the case ad wads fillers. There is no Double charging a 45-70 case with somewheres around 65 grns of 2 f Black powder as it needs to e compressed some to get the overall length. I have friends that use smokless duplication loads with good results. They use the same or similar bullet to what I am using over BP. Cleaning Black Powder isnt as bad or hard as it sounds. My rifles get cleaned between stages with widex vinegar or 20-1 water / Ballistol. After the days shooting a good cleaning with the water ballistol, 10-15 strokes with a nylon brush then 3-4 patches on a jag. The last patch is normally still white. Leading is a diffrent matter and if you lead up a 34" barrel you have a big chore ahead of you. I use bullets cast from 20-1 lead tin. With black powder these seal the bore well. I may give 16-1 or even 12-1 a try in the future. Personally I like putting these rifles thru thier paces as originally as possible.

[Chill Wills]

So what's the problem you ask? Well, I got a super deal on a Shiloh Sharps #3 Sporter and it doesn't like the load at all. At 100 yds, groups are 3-4 inches. I'm pretty much at the minimum recommended load for 5744 powder so I think my only option is to go up in powder charge or switch powders. So I was wondering if anyone has a similar experience or a recommended starting point?

Some ideas to try are changing the bullet seating depth. Pedersoli chambers have some cylinder or throat or freebore and your new Shiloh likely does not. They are on the snug side. Also just change powder or charge slightly to see if that will agree better with the timed exit of the bullet from the barrel.