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Thread: Goex Olde Eynsford Blackpowder

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    The 2f is alittle over a gr. lighter than KIK and Express. The 1.5 is 5+ grs lighter than KIK.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    These are scale weights ... I don't load by volume
    Any idea how that compares with the same volume of KIK?

    Lyman 457132 Postell - 536gr - 1:20 - BR2 Primer - 0.225 Compression - 0.08 dry felt wad
    68gr 2010 KIK 1.5Fg socked .... Avg velocity - 1087 ... SD 23
    68gr 2010 KIK 1.5Fg .... Avg velocity - 1062 ... SD 9.5
    68gr 2010 KIK 2Fg socked .... Avg velocity - 1113 ... SD 4
    68gr 2010 KIK 2Fg .... Avg velocity - 1138 ... SD 7
    Fouling semi moist, no 'tree limb' size charcoal, 3 patches to clean bore
    16 May 2011
    Temp - 60 F
    RH - 78%

    Don, do me a favor - charge 100grs in a volumetric measure (settled and not settled) and let me know the scale weights ... Density test
    Regards
    John

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Thanks for the reminders i have a can of SWISS 1 1/2 G i am getting ready to load some Sharps 50-3 1/3 " cases with and was thinking of using the scale as my Goex FG was dead on weight for volume but i have not checked the Swiss and this could have been a big mistake!!!
    When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    John density wise the 2f Old e runs very close to KIK,Express and regular 2f. The 1.5 old E in a 70 gr volume is 4 grs lighter than the same volume of KIK 1.5, Cartridge falls square in the middle between Old E and KIK 1.5
    If you pm me your mailing addy ( for the life of me can't find it in my collection of stuff) I'll send you all the patches from the cleanup between loads and the field cleanup.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMulhern View Post
    I'm mighty proud most of you guys don't shoot KIK! It might get short!!
    Rick:

    I took your advice and imported a case of that KIK 2F, nice and clean compared to Goex. But, I haven't shot enough of that KIK BP to really find out how well it is compared to the other brands.

    HPT:

    If your wanting to try some of that KIK powder, give me a call.

    RRR
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  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    I bought 10 lbs of Cartridge and 25 lbs of 2F KIK last year. Looks like I lucked out this time!
    SMOKELESS IS JUST A PASSING FAD!-STEVE GARBE


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  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    140 grs by volume of Swiss 1 1/2 G weighed 150 grs. I should have gone though my notes before loading it would have saved me a couple other problems but cases are loaded and just waiting for a good day to shoot now.
    When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Well I have shot up 2# of Olde now, 1# of 1.5 and 1# of 2 with several different levels of compression and It is a good shooting powder from what I have found. BUT this powder looks like black powder but that is about as far as it goes because it sure dont have the characteristics that blk powder has. It is faster then the blk I have been using by quite a bit, it does not smell like blk powder, infact it has no oder when I soak the cases in water, but right now I wouldn't smell a skunk if I stepped on him from the cold I have. The fouling in the brass when extracted does not look like black powder as I know it. Today it was fairly calm about 7 to 10 mph wind and I paid attention to the smoke and there is less of it then a load of the KIK and old Goex I have been using.
    But the give away is the lack of sulfur oder when cleaning the brass, it's just not there. This powder acts like the old less smoke .22 rim cartridges I used back when I was a kid because I could buy them for less money.
    I sure would like to know what this stuff really is.

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    This powder acts like the old less smoke .22 rim cartridges
    Lead Pot, one of the ingredients of Lesmok was wood cellulose
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Scanning electron micrograph of wood cellulose

    * No taste
    * Odourless
    * Insoluble in water
    * Biodegradable
    * Can be broken down chemically into it’s glucose units by treating it with concentrated acids at high temperatures

    I have a box - don't plan to pull any heads to compare to Ole E though
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Read this carefully ...
    Kings Semi Smokeless consisted of 20 parts nitrated wood, 60 parts saltpeter, 12 parts charcoal, and 8 parts sulfur. Just like a black powder with a nitrocellulose kicker. DuPont produced a powder that was essentially the same under the name Lesmok.

    Nitrated wood started of as wood chips soaked in a solution of Potassium Nitrate so that the wood may be provided witht he oxygen to burn; and this is going to be used for 4,000 years and into warzone. This method provides a cheaper propellent for firearms sinse it doesn't need to deal with the process of having the wood turn into charcoal, which expended wood to burn wood inside a container, so it was used because the process is not so difficult. However, based on the proportions of sulfur and potassium nitrate, the smoke can be relatively low. Making it the first 'smokeless' powder, ...
    * Potassium Nitrate into water.
    * Wood into chipper.
    * Chips into Pottasium nitrate solution.
    * Slurry into drying area (fire place, sun, etc.)

    I ordered the 3 grades of Olde E from Jerry today to do some 'in the can' and range testing
    Last edited by John Boy; 04-03-2013 at 11:11 AM.
    Regards
    John

  10. #30
    In Remembrance w30wcf's Avatar
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    John,
    Thank you for the history lesson. The early bulk smokeless powders were made from Wood Cellulose and compared to b.p. their weight was about 60% less.

    Regarding the early Semi- Smokeless powders.....
    Powder measure set at 40.0 =
    32.0 grs. - Kings Semi Smokeless
    27.0 grs. - DuPont Lesmok

    w30wcf
    Last edited by w30wcf; 04-05-2013 at 08:23 AM.
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
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  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    w30wcf, you probably ought to get an order of this Old Eynsford in. It's outrunning Swiss in the velocity dept. is quite a bit less dense than even Goex , yet still turns in good velocities. It responds very well to compression. I think the 3f might just be the real deal in the wcf cartridges.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  12. #32
    In Remembrance w30wcf's Avatar
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    Don,
    Good idea. I'll try some in the .44-40 24" Marlin and see how it does. I will say that Swiss 3F will push a 215 gr. cast bullet to close to 1,450 f.p.s. in testing but I prefer to keep velocities around 1,300 f.p.s. just like the original.

    w30wcf
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
    NRA Life Member
    .22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    I have little doubt that the way the 2 and 1.5 have acted in the big rifle cases, the 3f will sling bullets very fast. The stuff seems to get a bunch more uniform in the spreads with some a bit more compression from actual weights thrown, than when just running off of volume. 35 grs of the 2f fits very handily in a 44-40 or 45 colt case, at this time tho I don't have any 45 colt bullets bp lubed, or we'ld know what that runs out of a 5.5 inch barrel.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    32 grs 2f, 4.5 in bisley clone 38-40 avg of 25 rounds 20 ft from the muzzle 960 fps... 50 rounds the gun never tied up and is still ready to run.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    This and the thread over at Shiloh are very interesting. I wonder if we have any chemists present who can tell what is in this powder?

    -Nobade

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    I'm guessing it's just a nitrated wood powder much like the Kings Semismokeless, Dupont and Winchesters Lessmok, and Remington UMC had one as well right at the end of the bp era , just before smokeless became useable.
    With Hogdons owning IMR (used to be Dupont) Winchester and Goex (also used to be DuPont) it stand to reason that somewhere in the back of a file cabinet somewhere laid the recipe for that powder.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I'm guessing it's just a nitrated wood powder much like the Kings Semismokeless, Dupont and Winchesters Lessmok
    Hey Don, do a hammer test with Old E and let us know the results ...

    Semi-smokeless powder, even if it was as safe as black powder, still wasn't safe to handle. It could be set off by static electricity or even by hitting it with a hammer (or getting rowdy with a powder measure)

    In 1869 a German immigrant named Carl Dittmar came to America. He had worked from time to time with another man named Schultze. Schultze went to England and specialized in true smokeless powder made from nitrated wood pulp. Dittmar used nitrated wood pulp, but in a hybrid mixture.
    Backers became interested enough in Dittmar's ideas to build a factory in Binghamton, New York in 1878. In 1881 the factory blew up and destroyed most of Binghamton.
    Regards
    John

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Did that yesterday John. It wouldn't go off. It will make a nice flash in the pan of a flintlock.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  19. #39
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Thanks for the hammer test. That possibly eliminates the nitrated charcoal with nitroglycerine

    It will make a nice flash in the pan of a flintlock
    Don, so will even Old E' FFFg juiced up with sodium dinitrobenzoate sulfonate
    Regards
    John

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    It was 2f I tested in the flintlock pan.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check