Cap and ball revolver question

[7of7]

I recently acquired a Euroarms 44Cal New Model Army revolver.. (1858)
I slugged the bore, .448 - .449..
I measured the cylinders which are tapered at the mouth, .443 and not smooth at all.
I would say they quite possibly didn't do the finish work on it, such as cleaning up the cylinder walls.

My question are,
Shouldn't the cylinder holes be the same diameter, or even a bit larger than the bore? , or is this typical for black powder revolvers? (that size bore, is fine with me...)
How far does one seat the balls?
Are over powder lubed wads really needed?

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Yes I would want the cylinder mouth and below where the projectile will be seated to be at least the same diameter. A hallow base boolit type may still shoot OK. .001 smaller may still bump up a RB or Boolit made of pure lead for a good fit. Me I would get out the proper reamer and take care of the situation. That's me. I like perfection. It promotes accuracy.
The ball must be seated so there is no air space between powder and ball or if used, a wad.
No you do not have to use a wad. But there are advantages in some cases. You may want to use a lesser powder charge and not ram the ball (maybe cannot) all the way down onto the powder. You may want to use a lubed wad and not lube on top of the ball. Maybe as a gas seal.... whatever reason. Yes I use wads when my desire leads that way. I also shoot full cylinder loads of BP with a dobber of lube over the ball. That is one of the joys of muzzleloaders. Load to the conditions today. Tomorrow can be vastly different.
Mike in Peru

[Nobade]

My Euroarms '58 is the same way - .445" chambers and .451" across the grooves. I have a bunch of .445" balls that I want to use up first, then after they're gone I am going to open up the chambers to .452" and shoot .454" balls in it.

Funny thing is, it is quite accurate with the .445" balls. Full loads of FFFg, a lubed felt wad, and pure lead ball seem to seal the bore just fine. No leading, and 25 yard accuracy around an inch if I don't flinch. So even though the dimensions seem really wrong it still works OK. Probably wouldn't be too hot with harder balls though.

-Nobade

[7of7]

I found, at 25 yards with full loads (30 grains), it shoots about 14 inches high... LOL (I wonder at what range it is back on...) I was quite surprised at the lack of recoil... but it is fun to shoot...
This is my first BP revolver... so, I am learning.. any other recommendations from anyone?

[R.M.]

Yes, you are right. It's best if the cylinder diameter is larger than the groove diameter. For some reason, the Italians don't understand this. Myself, I get a reamer to open the cylinders up on all my C&B guns. Does it help, not sure, but it makes me feel better.

[twotoescharlie]

aim at the belt buckle

TTC

[Nobade]

I found, at 25 yards with full loads (30 grains), it shoots about 14 inches high... LOL (I wonder at what range it is back on...) I was quite surprised at the lack of recoil... but it is fun to shoot...
This is my first BP revolver... so, I am learning.. any other recommendations from anyone?

Mine's dead on at 50M.
Other than that, loading presses are cool and make shooting them more fun. I have a "tower of power" but there are many available. Go to Durofelt for material to make wads, Gatofeo #1 is great lube for the wads, Track 'o' the Wolf has 6 cavity ball moulds, and mainly shoot a lot to get used to your new revolver. The more you use it the easier and more pleasurable it is. Have fun!

-Nobade

[7of7]

Ordered a .450 reamer for the cylinder, to clean them out and smooth them up.. That should also help with cleaning.. having smooth holes. Most likely will make loading easier..
Any good ideas on where to find an extra cylinder for these Euroarms revolvers?

[curator]

7of7,

Not wishing to imply that you may have measured your bore-slug incorrectly, but a groove diameter of .449 in a New Model Army .44 would be very unusual. If the bore has 5 or 7 grooves this makes measuring with ordinary caliper micrometers difficult since there is a groove on one side of the slug and a land on the other side. Some find they can get a "fairly accurate" measurement by spinning the slug while slowly tightening the micrometer down. Another method is to wrap a piece of thin (.005) brass shim-stock around the bullet, measure then subtract twice the shim's thickness from your results. Most '58 New Model Army .44s have a groove diameter of .451-.452. You would be well advised to ream your chambers to .452 or .4525 to improve your accuracy. Brownells sells the reamer for .45 Colt cylinders and it can be easily altered to work in a cap & ball revolver with the correct diameter guide.

[Omnivore]

I would suggest finding out just how well it can be made to group, using charge and loading variations, before reaming the chambers. It is common for Italian repros to have undersized chambers and still shoot very well. If you can get multiple five shot groups of under three inches from a rest at 25 yards, I'd say leave it alone unless you just like to experiment. There are of course many variable that contribute to accuracy or the lack thereof, including forcing cone angle and finish, chamber-to-barrel alignment, chamber mouth dings or burrs (which I think are probably far more common than some might think) ball size, bore consistency or defects, muzzle properties or muzzle dings and loading technique. Some people have reported finding a bore constriction at the barrel thread area for example, so slugging at each end may reveal something there. As said before, it can be very difficult to measure a slug from a barrel having an odd number of grooves, and if you're using a caliper to measure the chamber diameter directly, you're probably getting a low reading. The caliper tines have a flat surface on them, so they don't really work inside a round bore.

Uberti, for one, has a groove diameter of .450 in their current Remington repro. They also have .450 chambers, but Pietta and others use undersized chambers. Strangely, these specs are seldom listed in any of the litterature. Dixie Gun Works has taken it upon themselves to list some of the revolvers' specs, but far from all of them. Another interesting fact is that different model "44s" will have different chamber, bore and groove diameters even from the same manufacturer. A Walker will spec out different from a Remington Army, which may be different still from a '61 Colt. Twist rates will vary also. It's Vodoo I tell ya.

[7of7]

Curator,
I guess I have an unusual one then...I did a few different slugs today...I noted what you are saying about the groove/land being oposite of each other and throwing off the measurement. I took some strips of aluminum pop can and wrapped around it, and got the same measurement, I also did the same with a piece of .008 copper and still got the same measurements. I even took a measurement and added in the depth of the rifling... .004 and came up with a solid .449... measuring across from a groove to a land.. on the slug.. Maybe this is why the original owner decided to get rid of it...LOL. I also took a .440 ball (.442 as measured) for one of my rifles, and shoved through the bore, and the rifling was engraved on it too, but not very deep..most likely 1-2 thousanths..
At any rate, the cylinder charge hole bores look like they were initially reamed but they didn't finish ream them... but, as Omnivore says, the Italians seem to like the undersize chambers.. My main reason for reaming the cylinder is to clean up the holes so they aren't so darn rough.. I believe it should make them easier to load, and clean out after the shooting is done...
I think this is going to be quite fun... I would like to find another euroarms cylinder for it though, and everywhere I have checked says they aren't available...

7of7,

Not wishing to imply that you may have measured your bore-slug incorrectly, but a groove diameter of .449 in a New Model Army .44 would be very unusual. If the bore has 5 or 7 grooves this makes measuring with ordinary caliper micrometers difficult since there is a groove on one side of the slug and a land on the other side. Some find they can get a "fairly accurate" measurement by spinning the slug while slowly tightening the micrometer down. Another method is to wrap a piece of thin (.005) brass shim-stock around the bullet, measure then subtract twice the shim's thickness from your results. Most '58 New Model Army .44s have a groove diameter of .451-.452. You would be well advised to ream your chambers to .452 or .4525 to improve your accuracy. Brownells sells the reamer for .45 Colt cylinders and it can be easily altered to work in a cap & ball revolver with the correct diameter guide.

[Nobade]

That revolver you have isn't one of their "kit" ones is it? I had never seen one of those until about a week ago when the local gun shop got one in. It is completely blued, but no finish work has been done. The machine marks on the barrel not polished out, screws too long, grips not fitted, etc. It does look as if it would be able to be fired as it is, but needs a lot of work to make it right.

-Nobade

[7of7]

I don't think so. The fit and finish are very nice, with the only exception of the cylinder charge holes. It is a Euroarms... so I don't know if this is normal for their manufacturing process... I will get some pictures tonight..

[troy_mclure]

i have one like the op's with smaller chambers than bore.

you can also see the machine grooves in the chambers, and they have a very sharp taper.

i dont measure groups for it, but i can consistently hit the 6" plates at 25 yds.

the guns preferred load is 25gr powder(doesnt seem to matter what kind), a thick stiff wad(lite lube), ball(.451-.457 all shoot well, but .454 is preferred), thin heavily lubed wad.

with above load i can get a good 7-8 cylinders thru it before it gets hard to load and accuracy degrades.

[7of7]

This is what I bought.. the Euroarms 44 Cal. New Model Army.

[fcvan]

That's just danged pretty. Mine is a brass framed CVA imported from Armi San Marcos, no longer in production. Before I bought my own reloading equipment I bought the 1858 Remington copy so I could go shooting and not buy factory ammo. Back then, a 100 caps, a pound of Pyrodex, and a round ball mold was still cheaper than factory ammo for my off duty weapon. Shooting 50 to 100 rounds was a good day in the Mojave desert. Good memories. I still have the pistol and recently molded up 20 lbs of soft lead balls. I've got caps, powder, all I need is a sunny day.