My Trapdoor Loads, Technique and Equipment

[Larry Gibson]

Audie

Well Larry you certainly have come thru for us. And many thanks for permission to print this up and tuck it into my 45/70 data. I'm sorry it's taking me so long to get back...work schedule and doing a lot of casting right now. Sunday morning is about the only time I have and I'm on the range at 9 am. Anyways, I'm spending some time outlining questions so I can ask them in a linear fashion and not go twaddeling about willie nilly. I guess I'll start with cases. I've seen no mention or support in the post concerning annealing. I haven't done it...seems a bit too haphazard to me and I'd probably gammohooch it up. I have considered the "dip it in melted lead" idea. Figgered if I held the cases I'd soon find out when it's hot enough, but figgered I'd ask first. Now, mind ye, I've been loading and reloading these same 50 cases since...1980 something. I've never had one split. I've boogered up 3. (hit the durn die when I ran the ram up) And lately....I been loading them cases a lot!

While I do anneal some cases they are all bottle necked cases, never had a need to anneal any 45-70 cases. I also have some R-P cases that I’ve been using since the mid ‘70s which have been loaded and shot I don’t know how many times with some very heavy loads and hard crimps out of my Siamese Mauser 45-70. I’ve lost a few of them and some nickeled R-P cases from slightly split case mouths fired in the TDs from using a heavy roll crimp. Since going to the taper crimp die and just straightening the case mouth out I can’t remember when the last case mouth split. So, I’ve not even thought about annealing.

BTW; when I do anneal I use a Lee case trimmer holder in an electric screw driver to hold the case and spin it while I heat the neck/shoulder area with a propane torch to proper color and then quench in cold water to cool the case so it can be changed right away. That method is fast and easy and I’ve annealed a lot of bottle necked cartridges very successfully that way.

Not heavy loads...usually under 1100f.p.s. with an occassional...bit more. As you know I've stopped using black powder. Did it for 20 years...ain't doin' it no more. Every coupl'a loadings I run them thru the Lee case trimmer just to make sure they're all the same. Then a quick touch with the champhering tool inside and out. Just a touch. And I always clean the lube out'a the mouths before reloading. I have noticed more case neck tension on the Winc. cases vs the R.P cases...go figger? All test loads are with one maker of case as well. (either all R.P.'s or all Winc.) I gather you are reccomending enlarging the primer flash hole for light loads and fast (Bullseye...who'd a thunk it??) powders. I may do that for the Winc. cases and keep them seperate for such.

I do recommend uniforming the flash holes as per Spence Wolf’s method. The slightly larger flash hole lets the flame get into the case much quicker with a larger flash area to ignite the smaller amounts of fast burning powder lessening the effect of “powder positioning”. It has absolutely no detrimental effect of raising the psi with full powered medium burning powders, especially those psi’s at TD levels. If all I was going to use was my light Bullseye loads I would drill the flash hole out with a #28 drill to get the flash to the powder as quick as possible with the largest flash signature as possible. I do that with other cartridges with cases that are “dedicated” to such light loads. But alas, I have not yet “dedicated” any 45-70 cases to only those light loads. Actually it may or may not be any real measureable benefit with the drilled flash holes ala Wolf with smokeless powders but “think” they shoot better so it makes me more confident..........

How come you never mentioned Lymans Neck Size Only dies for the 45/70?

Mentioned the Lyman Short NS die in Part II. It’s the die used whenever I mention NSing cases which is what I most often do.

Track of The Wolf has em' and it'd have saved me spending 3 days honing out an RCBS F.L. die...dadgummit!

Ooooops!

I tried backing out the RCBS and kept snapping off the de-prime pins cause it flops around when ya do that. Oh...and found out gunk builds up under the rim of the ca'tridge and affects o.a.l. when you chamber it.

I had the same problem with the RCBS die when I tried to just partial size. With the solid pin in the Lee FL die I didn’t have the problem. However, the Lyman short NS die is the way to go. I deprime and clean the cases and inspect them for debris inside after cleaning.....amazing what can get into those cases and stay there even after cleaning!!!!

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Larry thanks for clarifying on the Lyman Neck die. See...that's why I need to print this all out. I go back and review all the info then by the time I get to page 3 I forget what I read. (Golden years my hindermostparts.) So back to cases. Larry at present I'm sizing to .463+ (lapped Lee 405h.b.) and using a .462 expander (from Track) and getting excellent neck tension. A pulled down load shows little to no swageing of the boolit. (Lyman #2...a bit hard but I have lots of it) I fired 20 rounds testing lube on Sunday and the rounds were not crimped...just straightened out. Presently I can slip-fit a new boolit in them cases with very little effort. Almost no neck tension. So I'm just wondering...maybe I could hone that Lee boolit sizing die out just a smidge more to .464...eh? My reason would be I'm getting just the lightest bit of leading forward from the chamber to about 6in. up the barrel. I suspect the previous owners never shot a cast boolit thru this TD and the bore might be a bit loose forward of the chamber. I slugged it and it's .461+ overall but the slug gets easier at the chamber end. I realize I have to allow some margin for neck expansion at time of release so don't want to overdo this. Your thoughts? I don't want to wander too far from just case discussion but want to mention I have tried softer lead (50/50 Lyman #2 and pure) and the leading was considerably worse. Going softer also causes the boolits to drop slightly smaller...which means I'll have to lap a bit more if that's the answer. Now mind you I'm not talking excessive leading but after 5 shots I run a patch and holding it just right can see small slivers of lead. I haven't gone beyond 5 shots without patching but presume this would soon bugger my groups. Using Felix lube at present but I do have some beeswax/olive oil 50/50 on hand. Unique powder....11 to 11.7gr. and leading gets noticably worse above 11.7 grains. Thanks again for your time and efforts. Audie...the Oldfart. P.S. I hope to get to powder discussions soon...nearly bawled when you said Unique wasn't working well for you. I have Bullseye/Universal/2400/Trailboss/4759 on hand but hoping to eliminate all except Unique from my bench. Tried 3031...twice...dumped it in the flowerbed. Got tired of driving boolits from the barrel. (2 of 10) I couldn't even get that stuff to ignight. Poured whole charges of unburnt powder out of the chamber.

[Larry Gibson]

If your barrel is .461 you might want to make a chamber cast. There's not much "throat" in TD chambers so the chamber mouth might be scraping lead off the .463 bullets as the bullet enters the small throat depositing that as "leading" just in front of the chamber. That's what it sounds like to me as the harder you push the bullet, or the softer the alloy, the more the bullet base obturates before entering the throat and lead is getting scraped off. By lapping the sizer and using a larger bullet you may exasperate the problem. The larger bullet is going to also offer more resistence as the front gets sized down to .461 by the barrel and the back of the bullet is going to obturate as much as it can by the pressure behind it.

Not that I like to see a grown man cry but.........I suggest, before lapping and using a larger bullet, you think about trying a slower powder like the 2400 or 4759 you have to give bullet a gentler push into the barrel before it obturates. I was never satisfied with Unique under bullets heavier than 300 gr. Seems 2400, 4227, 4759 or 5744 always made the 350 - 385 gr and heavier bullets shoot so much nicer....and easier. BTW; a dacron filler with the 2400, 4759 and even 3031 will make them all ignite and burn a lot more efficiently.

Sometimes trying to make something convenient can easily create and lead to other problems......life is just that way sometimes..........

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Larry thanks for the return. Hadn't thought about the throat in the TD chambers...hmmm. Are you thinking a Cerrosafe casting? I read somewhere about using a case filled almost to the top and then placing a soft smaller dia. boolit in the case, chambering it and using a solid ramrod hammering the boolit from the muzzle to expand it into the throat. (Imagine a loaded cartridge waaaay too long inserted in the chamber) Sounds a bit brutal to me...might be better off ordering some Cerrosafe or do a sulfer casting? I'll have to work on that. Well, on to possible powders....although I might drag you back to cases again at some point. Larry I tried the 2400 one time with 20gr. if memory serves, The group was actually quite good! I was so paranoid about pulling the trigger I don't recall if I had leading at that point and didn't write down any data as I thought it best to avoid 2400 after reading of the dismanteling of a T/C Contender with it. (took 10 minutes for the scope pieces to fall back to earth...) But I do see some here have used it with good results. I've found precious little other use for 2400 at the levels I shoot at so mebbe I need to rethink it. And the spector of dacron has me at a loss. It makes sense to me but the pro's seem to be right along with the cons. I do trust your judgement however and I have a One Cartridge book that clearly states to use it from the manufacturers. I do have the dacron as well. Much to think about my friend. Would you reccomend a starting load with 2400? Recoil vs accuracy will determine how far I extend the load. Well Larry so much to cover and so many questions yet to ask. Hoping on Thursday when the girlfriend arrives she can coach me on printing this up. Until time permits then, I am in your debt. Audie...the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

Using 2400 with the 400 gr cast and the dacron filler start at 18 gr and work up to 21 gr. Suggest you use a chronograph if available and stop at 1300 fps.

Larry Gibson

[plainsman456]

I had the chance to fondle one of the trapdoor rifles and work up some loads for it using trail boss powder.

I bought a mold from here,made by accurate molds and it casts 456.5 and weights 325 grains.

I was worried because it was gas checked mold but went ahead any way.

I used range scrap with some 8 inches of 95/5 for fill out.
The cases were Hornaday and the primers were from CCI,the lube was some from a half empty tube of that moly Lyman sells,applied by hand.

I have to admit i was some what worried about what would happen,but i was worried for nothing.

The sights were close at 50 yards,just a tad high but at a far greater range like 600,the elevated rear was close to a 2 foot tumble weed.
I was having so much fun i had the brother in law shoot it as well as my wife.

She will not be upset if one of these rifles comes my way in the future.


This and other things you have wrote,mainly the use of fillers,has helped a bunch.


Keep it up.

[oldfart1956]

Using 2400 with the 400 gr cast and the dacron filler start at 18 gr and work up to 21 gr. Suggest you use a chronograph if available and stop at 1300 fps.

Larry Gibson

Many thanks again Larry. I'm spending some time reading the sticky from badgeredd in the Cast Boolits section to further understand the throat/leade situation. As well I will set up the chronograph on my next trip to the range with the 2400/dacron loads. Haven't chrono'd much so far with the TD but since I'm getting closer on accuracy I rekkin' it's time. Have to go back home this Sat. (Mothers Day) but have a groundhog hunt planned for Memorial Day weekend up in Franklin, Pa. and them hogs is in trouble up to 100yds. or just a smidgin' more. I'll stop back as time permits as we haven't even got finished with the case prep business yet. Hopefully this upcoming Sun. morn I'll loft a few of the 2400's downrange and get back with a report. Audie...the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

Best to your other half on Mother's Day and enjoy the hog hunt........

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Well Larry....I'm back! Preping cases today for the 2400 loads. Got some dacron cut and ready. I'm assuming you cut the dacron in strips and just want it to set on the powder and boolit base proper. No compression in other words. I also rooted around in the re-melt bucket and found some of the .462 boolits from a previous session so I'll be loading .462's and .463's as well. (That's gonna be a bugger if I oversized that Lee sizer and now have to make it smaller.) Oh well, Track's got em' in .460 and that's what I started with. Once I settle on a size I'll order a sizing die for the Lyman 450 in the correct diameter. This lubeing by hand sux. GAARRHH! Larry for case expanding I went with the Lee expanders from Track (have .460&.462) and neck tension seems...robust. Have the Lyman M die as well but it's woefully inadequet for this job. Way too short for boolits this long. I'm going to make up a dummy round and take it to work tonight and use the scales to see how much it takes to dislodge the boolits...I suspect more than 30lbs. at a guess. I can thumb-start em' up to the first (bottom) lube groove though so they seem to be going in proper. Using the .462 expander at present. Also need to find the #28 drill bit for them flash holes. I hope to be shooting on Sun. morning. Didn't shoot this past Sun. so's to give the neighbors a break on Mothers Day. And I need to find that chronograph....and the tri-pod. Ohh..and make targets up. You'd get a hoot out of my targets Larry. See, got a bit of a vision problem and cain't hardly see them 8in. white bulls so now I make a target shaped like an upside down pyramid or triangle. It's 20 inches wide (not a typo) and 10 inches top to bottom. I can see it puddy good at 100yds.!! The shape helps me find left/right real well. I still can't tell if I'm at the bottom or 3 inches below...but I'm good left to right! Well Sir, time to get reloading. Audie....the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

I'm assuming you cut the dacron in strips and just want it to set on the powder and boolit base proper. No compression in other words......excellent assumption but mild comression doesn't hurt anything as long as the dacron fills the air space and is not tamped down as a wad.

Try backing the FL die out to just size the cases enough so the .462 expander is a hard hand push into them. You might be oversizing the necks and they are springing back quite a bit.

Don't drill the flash holes with the #28 drill if you are using 2400 or slower powder with the dacron filler; it isn't necessary. The #28 drilled flash holes work best with light bullets over faster burning powders w/o a filler.

Bullshop can make an H&I sizer for your 450 for .462 or what ever.

Also if you run across an older TC Maxi/Minie' ball luber pick it up. The green one anyway as it is .45 caliber and works much better than hand lubing. The red one is .50 cal and you can see how well it lubed the MaxiBall. Very quick too and I refill the tube with my own Beeswax/olive oil lube and knead it while lubing "as cast" cast bullets....works great. Too bad TC doesn't make it anymore.......

Attachment 70455

Got a bit of the old eye problems these days myself. What ever target works is fin for me. I'm probably going to 8 or 10" black squares myself instead of the 6 or 8" bullseye for 100 yards use.........or put a scout scope on my TDs....now wouldn't that be a trip! Ole Jeff would probably role over in his grave.........

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Thanks for the feedback Larry. Should have mentioned the #28 drill would only be used for the super-light loads and lighter boolits and cases dedicated for that. Got tied up yesterday so starting work on the brass in the morning after work. And, like you, thought about a scope....have an EER Nikon 2X8 with b.d.c. but....I just don't have the heart to do it. Wonder if a feller could hack off a piece of that pictinny rail stuff and mount it on the hole(s) already there for the rear sight? Mount a UltraDot? I did find a tang sight in the junk drawer....looks to be an old T/C one. No windage adjustment though....rats. Kinda hard to drift that front sight...ehh? Gotta run. Audie....the Oldfart..

[SchuetzenMiester]

I have heard about a Weaver base being used in the existing holes on a TD for long eye relief scopes. I haven't done it myself.

[Larry Gibson]

I have heard about a Weaver base being used in the existing holes on a TD for long eye relief scopes. I haven't done it myself.

That would be my idea also.....and a small Burris Fastfire might be very good on it and not too obnoxious looking..........

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Well Larry.....I'm back. I got out to the range on Sunday morn with a box full'a loads and took the chronograph. Fortune didn't favor the chrono due to constantly shifting winds and mixed sun&clouds. See, the range I use is a wide path cut thru the woods with lots of trees and such...target butts at 25/50/75 and 100yds. The trees leafed out now shifting in the breeze and changing sunlight were messing with the chrono and giving odd readings. I suspect it was measuring the leaf speed at times. Anyways, made up loads with the 2400&dacron in 18/19/19.5 and 20gr. using the 405 boolit. Groups at 100yds. were acceptable with the 18gr. loads but nothing noteworthy. About 4 inches. As you fortold leading (or the lack of it) has greatly improved. I really had to look for it and am pleased with that. But Larry that recoil level is climbing back up. I got thru 10rds. of the 18gr. loads but balked after shooting 10 of the 19gr. loads. Them 19.5/20gr. loads are getting pulled. Yep...I'm a *****. I ain't takin' a poundin' like that to shoot paper or kill groundhogs. I don't doubt in better conditions the groups might warrant it. Eyes were giving me fits yesterday. But I did discover something else and wish to cover a bit of that ground with you Larry on my next post. More coming up. Audie...the battered Oldfart..

[oldfart1956]

Back again. Larry while rummaging thru the box of molds I found a Lee 90373 (.457/325gr.) and Sat. morning cast just enough to note the size (.458) and then lapped the mold out to .462. I figger one way to drop recoil and yet maintain group size is to go lighter. You, of course, mentioned the lighter boolits and the success you've had with them. This particular mold wasn't mentioned...but I had it on hand and it wouldn't seem to fit anything else. Single cav. with 2 lube grooves and a nice flat nose...looked good. I then cast up about 50 and they looked good, well filled out and dropped nice. Lubed in Felix and chased thru the (now) .463 Lee sizer which did little more than wipe the excess lube off. I then loaded these nearly warm boolits over 10/11gr. of Unique and 14gr. Trailboss and....21gr. of 2400 with dacron. Hmmm? Remember the recoil mentioned in the previous post? Not an issue with the (now) 330gr. boolits. Seems a 75gr. drop in weight shouldn't matter that much..but it does. The groups using 2400 did well, under 2in. with a flyer on the first (patched bore) shot. I'm finding almost no sign of leading with the 330gr. boolits. The 10gr. Unique keeps dropping in a 1 1/2in. to 2in. group...again with a first shot flyer which I assume is due to the clean bore. The 11gr. Unique had 3 touching and the other 2 opened the group to 2 1/2 inches with each 5 shot group. The TrailBoss loads were unremarkable but acceptable at 4 inches. But this has me now thinking. The boolits had no time to age, were not water dropped. Lyman #2 alloy as all the others. I shot them 24hrs. after casting. I'm starting to really like the 330gr. boolits. Considerably less recoil. I may need to buy one of the molds you mentioned in 300gr. status. Great....2 boxes of molds laying here and I'm buying molds. (sigh...) Also, I'm beginning to think I may need to soften some of the Lyman #2. Once these age harden I could have some issues. Well Larry give me some advice and share your thoughts as you have so kindly done. The casting pot is sitting on the table and now is the time to make adjustments. And again thanks for your patience and excellent advice. Audie...the Oldfart...

[Larry Gibson]

Audie

Sounds like you're discovering, as I did, the joy of using the lighter weight cast bullets in the TD. Unique would have been the 1st powder I would have used with that 330 gr bullet and your results solidifies that choice. It should be a good load and I wouldn't use a filler (assuming you didn't?) either. With the 300 gr RCBS FN (PB'd one as there is a GC'd one with the same nomclature) or the Lyman 457191 (290+ gr) I would probably opt for Bullseye powder and keep the velocity under 1100 fps for a very pleasant and accurate load.

Your 1st round flyer may just be a oddity of TDs, especially if it consistently goes high?

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Hmmm....how'd you know? First shots...usually high and left. Not horribly out of the groups but enough to make a 1 1/2in. group into a 4 incher. And powder selection didn't seem to matter. Go figger? I rekkin' I'll know enough to shoot the first shot before chasing them groundhogs. I'll start checking around on molds when I get back from up north this weekend Larry. Managed to print off most of this topic and keeping a folder and need to take time to highlight some advice to I don't keep repeating questions. As for the Unique, nope no filler. But oddly enough one of my data sources did reccomend dacron with the lighter Unique loads. I think it's the One Book-One Load but will have to check. I've never heard of that and you've not reccommended it so I didn't do it. Unique is puddy easy to ignight so don't foresee the need but what about steep downward shots? Getting off work at 6a.m. and before taking down the casting stuff (sitting on kitchen table) I'm going to drop a few more of the 330's and hopefully get the throat casting work done. I'm going to fill a damaged 45/70 case about 3/4 full of lead, and set it aside to cool......then make a lead cylinder and set it in of the case (think of a really long boolit) and chamber it. I'll slide that Belding&Mull range rod downbore with a bore guide and brass jag and gently tap to expand the cylinder. I think that will do what I want. Lead should still be puddy soft at that point. I'll let you know how that goes. And again...many thanks Larry. Audie...the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

Hmmm....how'd you know?

Spence told me that many years back.....I found it to be the case.....HE was the TD expert........I'm just chopped liver compared to him......

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

Check out these two web sites on Spence's book.

http://4570book.info/

http://www.amazon.com/Loading-cartri...ref=pd_sim_b_4

[AggiePharmD]

Has anyone used a black powder substitute for the Goex and if so any particular brand work better? Also, would the charges be identical?