Great write ups as always and thanks for sharing. Just wish I had a TD to play with.
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Great write ups as always and thanks for sharing. Just wish I had a TD to play with.
Charter Member #148
Larry, I see in post #36 that you sized the 16:1 alloy bullets .4615" and the expander was .4585" for a .003" neck tension.
I see what you have shot for group sizes (nice by the way) but did you use any other neck tension then the .003", just wondering how you arrived at the .003"?
The .4585 expander was made originally for the softer cast bullets sized.459. That gave some neck tension with minimal if any bullet distortion. Then when I cast of 16-1 and went to the bullets sized .4615 I just used the same expander because it gave no sizing down of those alloyed and sized bullets. Other than that no real scientific reason (I know, strange for me....). In Part IV or V I'll mention shooting "as cast" bullets of larger sizing.Originally Posted by Doc Highwall
Larry Gibson
I see you had .0005" neck tension for the soft lead and just used it for the harder 16:1 alloy and it worked. Too bad things like that did not happen more often.
Sometimes you just get lucky......I think the fact that I was seating the bullets into the leade countered and potential problems.
Larry Gibson
Great reading Larry. Looking forward to parts IV and V!
Almost got them done.
Larry Gibson
Good Lawd Larry...I thought you might'a went beaver! I was ready to e-mail your widow and see if she could find us a copy of the data or send me your computor!Anxiously awaiting the details. While waiting I'm still twiddling with loads. Last weekend I saved my first target in 45 years of shooting!
100 yards off the bench and the group measured 3/4 of an inch for 3 shots...buggered to 1 1/2 inch (outside to outside) with the 4th. shot.....then I looked at the group with binoculars and seen what I had...pulled the 5th. shot. GAAHH! 1884 TD with 11.5gr. Unique/lapped Lee 405h.b. mold using Lyman #2 and Felix loob. Minor leading. Lapped the mold a bit more an now at .4635 and honed out the sizing die this weekend. Tried some Reclused loads today and that didn't go so well. Fair groups but you'd have to see the leading. Well...we're waiting. Audie...the Oldfart..
Great thread Larry. I just made a deal with a friend to buy his M1884. It has been in his family since his great grandfather used it during the war (guessing Spanish -American?). He still has the original bayonet for it too. I can't wait to start working up some loads for it, this thread will really help out. Thanks!
I was a dog on a short chain.
Now there's no chain.
Jim Harrison
How about making this a sticky? Great info like this should be top of the screen.
I will have to read this more than once.
Nothing since mid-April??? Larry....yer killin me. I'm lappin' molds and resizing sizing dies, honing out my rcbs sizer/deprimer die, making seater nose mods and found two tubs of unknown lube I bought in a large purchase. I'm wailin' away at the backstops so often I got to go rummage galena out'a the dirt! I know the post is gonna be worth it but I'm not a young man...no tellin' how much time I got left. And the groundhogs are movin'!! Can't we have just a little peek? Audie...gittin older by the minute...
Well one thing and another has kept me busy the last few weeks, seems moving in toa new place is a never ending process. Here's Part IV which is not finished as I'm still rearching my records and putting the last part together. I post the rest when I get done. Part V is also included in the second post. Certainly wouldn't want oldfart1956 to come back and haunt me if he has the big "H" before I get er done.....LOLs....
Larry Gibson
Part IV……Smokeless Powder Loads……
Getting right down to it I suppose you know by now I prefer loads in fire formed cases that are NS’d. I do partial size the case for loads that will be used interchangeably between the two H&R TDs. For use in the M1884 original TD I use dedicated cases that are NS’d. The reason being is that psi of these loads in in the 25,000+ psi range and the fire formed cases will not easily chamber in all 3 rifles after a couple firings.
Cases & primers; with these smokeless powder loads with 390 – 500 gr bullets I most often use WW cases for these loads also. However, I have used R-P, Federal and Starline cases with equal success. I actually have acquired a quantity of Starline cases and these will probably be used for the 500 gr service level duplication loads for the M1884. I use Winchester, CCI and Federal LR standard primers interchangeably and haven’t found much, if any, difference in velocity or psi levels at the low end of TD loads. I just use what’s handy and available (especially these days). I prime the cases mostly with the RCBS bench priming tool but do use the Lee hand priming tool (latest version) for priming only a few cases.
Sizing & loading; The fired cases are cleaned, partial or NS’d for the rifle(s) to be used in), deprimed and I usually inspect the case inside and out while cleaning the primer pocket with the RCBS primer pocket cleaner (you’d be surprised what can find its way into that large case). When partial sizing I use the Lee FL die for the H&R TDs and the RCBS FL die for the M1884 TD. The FL dies are backed out with the cases sized until they just chamber easily. I use the two FL dies as they are adjusted and don’t need to be reset. The partial size setting with the RCBS FL die is also a perfect fit for my Siamese Mauser 45-70. With such it makes loading for multiple rifles easier. When partial sizing I put a bunch of the cases in an old gold mining pan and spray lube lightly with Dillon’s spray lube or my own made from alcohol and lanolin. If NSing I use a tudge of lanolin on every 3rd case applied with my fingers. The cases are delubed in a tumbler with sawdust; takes about 15 – 20 minutes. The cases then have the necks expanded with the .4585 expander and new primers seated for use with TD loads. [In case you’re wondering I do not expand the case mouths but use the Lee case mouth flare die for the jacketed bullet loads in the Siamese Mauser. That gives sufficient neck tension for those.] Cases are then charged with powder thrown from a Lyman 55 after setting the charge with a Redding scale. A visual on powder amount is made and only then is the powder charged case put in a loading block. When all the cases are charged I then insert a dacron filler in the case if needed.
The bullet is set on the flared case mouth and the bullet is seated to depth using the Lee seating die. My press is a Pacific O frame BTW or sometimes I use my COAX press. I have separate Lee seating stems for a couple bullets (460500 & 459-405HB) with the stem filled with Steel-Bed to fit the specific bullet nose contour. With most of the other bullets the Lee factory seating stem as is works fine. Nice thing about the Lee seater is the seating stem is readily changed. I use the Lee seating die with the seating stem removed to roll crimp or I use the Redding taper crimp die. Most often the taper crimp die is used to just straighten out the case mouth flare. Since the TD has a bit of leverage when closing the breach block I seat the bullets so the front of the driving band is engraved by the leade. An exact OAL other than that makes no detectable difference in accuracy. I load all of my TD cartridges so they can be carried in a prairie belt. Thus all the lube grooves and lube are inside the case mouths.
Alloys; I most often cast the Rapine 460500s of 16-1 alloy because they mostly get shot with BP or duplex loads and that alloy is perfect for them. That alloy is also excellent with smokeless loads. With the Lee 459-405HBs I cast them of 20-1 for straight BP loads. I cast them mostly out of range lead + 2% tin with a lot of lead added to soften it down for the duplex and smokeless loads. Since range lead varies greatly in composition it’s hard to give exact combinations except to say I like an AC’d 459-405HB for smokeless loads to cast well and have a BHN in the 11 – 13 range. With any batch of range lead I adjust the amounts of tin and lead added until that it achieved and it has worked well for a number of years and several different batches of range lead. Many times I also cast Lyman’s 458124 of the same alloy and use the same loads. The two GC’d (sacrilegious?) LeeC457-500-FN and the Lyman 458483 are cast from 16-1 (Lee bullet) and 20-1 (Lyman bullet) Both of those are quite accurate and can be driven to top end TD psi’s and velocities with excellent accuracy for hunting.
Powders; over the years I have used numerous smokeless powders of the appropriate burning rate for the TD [5744, 4198, 2400, 4227, 4759, RL7, 3031, 4895 and Varget]. All worked fine, all were “accurate” but some worked better than others for TD use. All of them required a dacron filler for best ignition and efficient burn. The dacron filler also greatly increased accuracy with little increase in psi at a given velocity. I did try other fillers such as COW and psi testing showed a great increase in psi, no increase in accuracy and problems associated with moisture absorption. Dacron has proven stable and reliable over the years; it’s what I use and what I recommend.
Accuracy; when I mention a “moa” level of accuracy that is at 200 yards with 10 shot groups. That is my standard of accuracy testing for both the M1884 target rifle and the H&R OM using the tang sights. I will note 100 yard accuracy with the H&R OM and LBH carbine which is done at 100 yards with the M1879 rear sights and 10 shot groups.
I’ve done lots of load development over the years and there’s not enough space here to cover it all. I’ll list the current loads I use and include a few notes on them. We can discuss specific loads and how I got there with them if you have questions concerning them.
Rapine 460500 gr service level load;
With this bullet or with the 457125 I was looking for a smokeless load that was low on psi yet pushing the M82 bullet at 1270 – 1315 fps to match the external ballistics of the M88 BP load for use in M1884 rifles with the Buffington sight. The Arsenal velocity was supposed to be 1315 fps muzzle velocity but Spence Wolf chronographed some M88 ammunition at 1255 & 1260 fps. Back in the mid ‘70s I chronographed 3 shots of M88 at 1264 fps at 15’ from the muzzle of a M1884 TD with a M11 Oehler chronograph. The 460500 at 500 gr over 70 gr of GOEX Cartridge was running right at 1200 fps.
I currently use two smokeless powders to achieve accurate loads with either bullet. The 457125 is cast of 20-1 and drops at .459 - .460 from the mould I was using. It does need to “bump up” to obdurate. I lube them as cast. The Rapine 460500 at .4615 is the more accurate in my target TD and is the bullet I now use. It is cast of 16-1 and does not need to “bump up” to obdurate and fit the groove diameter. I use 4895 and AA5744, both with a 1+ gr dacron filler. Both bullets are lubed with my BP lube and no leading occurs. There is still some unburned powder with both but it easily is blown out of the action if too much accumulates. With 4895 I use between 34 and 36 gr depending on the flavor of 4895 and the lot. I just work up the load so the velocity falls within the desired 1270 – 1315 fps. Accuracy is always around 2 moa. Both bullets seated so the driving band is engraved 1/3 to ½ when the breach block is closed. My current load of 34 gr milsurp 4895 with the dacron filler runs at 23,200 psi(M43), obviously well under the 28,000 psi SAAMI MAP.
M1898 load with the Rapine 460500;
The original M1898 smokeless load was 40 gr of 3031 under the arsenal M82 bullet cast of 16-1 alloy. I basically duplicate that with the Rapine bullet over 38 - 40 gr (no filler) depending on lot of powder. Velocity is 1400 – 14-30 fps from my target TD and accuracy runs 2 – 3 moa. It is not as accurate as the service load with 4895 or with AA5744. This may be because there is no dacron filler. I do not use this load unless I come across 3031 as I don’t like using that powder as the kernels are too long to measure accurately and I don’t want to weigh charges. One of these days I will drop back to 36 gr, use a dacron filler and work back up but haven’t gotten around to it. I prefer 4895 to duplicate the M1898 service load. I am using 37 gr of my current lot of milsurp 4895 (has a burning rate close to 4064 or Varget) with a 1 gr dacron filler for 1446 fps and consistent 2 moa accuracy. This makes for an excellent hunting load “as is” but I prefer the C457-500-fn for that.
500 gr bullet hunting load for my TD;
I use the Lee C457-500-FN bullet for hunting. It being GC I can cast it of softer alloy for excellent expansion and yet it can driven as fast. Years ago Lyman sent me loading data with C.U.P. pressures for TD level loads for their 500 gr “Schmitzer” bullet. It listed 45 gr 4895 (IMR) at 1459 fps (30” barrel) at 17,400 C.U.P. I use 40 gr of my current milsurp 4895 with a 1 gr dacron filler for 1505 fps at 26,500 psi(M43). Cast softer of 20-1 expansion is excellent and penetration is all one could ask for in larger game. I once shot a spike elk with a broken leg with it from about 50 yards away in the throat and the bullet exited beside the anus. Yes it does let you know you are pulling a trigger in a M1884 TD with prone or bench being not to comfortable for extended shooting sessions. However when hunting and shooting from sitting, kneeling or standing positions the recoil is hardly noticeable.
M1873 405 gr “service” duplication smokeless loads;
I use the Lee 459-405-HB bullet cast of 20-1 or 16-1 to duplicate these loads for the M1884 target TD and the H&R OM. My Lee mould drops the Hb bullets at .454 - .455 so for the M1884 I most often shoot them “as cast”. I lube them with my BP lube using a TC hand luber made for lubing .45 cal bullets with Original 1000 Bore Butter. I use and empty tube and fill it with my own BP lube. For use in the H&R OM I size the bullets in the 450 with .4615 H die and lube with my BP lube. At 200 yards the “as cast” bullets will give a bit better accuracy in the Target TD but in the H&R OM it doesn’t seem to matter if the bullets are sized or shot “as cast”. The most accurate load (1.5 moa with both rifles) is 25 -26 gr AA5744 (depending on lot) with a ¾ gr dacron filler for right at 1300 fps out of the H&R OM. That load will give about 1325 – 1350 fps in the longer barreled target TD. The psi(M43) is 22,500 – 25,000 for that load. I substitute the Lyman 457124 cast of the same 16-1 alloy, sized at .459 (“as cast”) in that load for use in the H&R OM as it has a .458 - .459 groove barrel and accuracy is the same, excellent. However that bullet at that low psi apparently does not obdurate well in the target TD’s .461 groove barrel and accuracy is poor.
SR4759 is also a fine powder to use with this weight cast bullets. I’ve found 22.5 – 23.5 gr with a ¾ gr dacron filler to shoot almost as good, if not as good, as the 5744 load. However, 5744 is easier to come by in my neck of the woods as 4759 was discontinued for a while. I could easily live with either powder. I have not yet pressure tested the 4759 load.
Note: 28 – 29 gr AA5744 w/o the dacron filler will push a 400 – 405 gr cast at 1350 fps with 28 – 29,000 psi(M43). It is thus a “max” load for a TD.
Other 385 – 420 gr cast bullet smokeless loads;
Gathering data from records to publish soon hopefully.......
Part V; “foraging”, small game, plinking and indoor practice loads
Having an indoor range capable of handling cartridges of 2000 fps readily available to me for several years was a boon to my reduced load development for about every cartridge I cast and reloaded for. This of course included the 45-70 and I refined a couple previous loads and developed some others.
I’ll not cover any BP loads here as Spence covered them very well in his book and I never really attempted any other loads as my main interest with these type of loads was with smokeless powders for use in all 3 of my TDs and my Siamese Mauser. Thus I’ll refer anyone to Spence’s book for BP loads and will, here, concentrate on those smokeless powder loads that worked well for me in all 4 rifles.
The alloy used for cast bullets or the RB should be soft. However they may be of about any binary or ternary alloy as long as it is soft and the antimony content is not too high. I many times used range lead but it has a high % of antimony most often so its castability was improved by adding 2% tin and then was “softened” with about 50- 70% lead added. That made it cast very well and yet it held up to the 1050 fps of the fastest such loads. The binary 40-1 and 30-1 alloys also work very well. Of course 20-1, 16-1, WWs +2% tin, #2 and even linotype will work well for these loads if the bullet diameter is at least of groove diameter. If these harder alloyed bullets are smaller than groove diameter you can expect some leading.
I always prefer a soft lube with these bullets. Javelina always worked very well as did LLA (following the directions) and any other NRA 50/50 formula lube. BAC also works very well. Most of the time I just use my BP lube (5 parts beeswax/4 parts virgin olive oil) as it’s in the 450 lubrasizer with the .4615 H die.
Powder; I ran the gamut of powders in the Unique – 4759 range and found all them unsatisfactory, The reason being all of them required higher psi to burn efficiently in the larger 45-70 case. By the time any of those powders were efficiently burning the velocity was not only way more than I wanted but accuracy also suffered. I finally re-researched such reduced and “cat sneeze” loads and decided that a faster powder was needed, even in the larger 45-70 case with light weight bullets. I’d been using Bullseye for years with other reduced loads so I decided to give it a try. I also tried other powders in the same burning rate but kept coming back to Bullseye for consistent performance with such loads in the 45-70 also.
I find any case works quite well but with small amounts of smokeless powder in the large 45-70 case I use the WW cases with the flash holes drilled as per Spence’s recommendation. The larger flash hole allows the flash to get into the case quicker and should be a larger “flash”. That’s what I think anyway and it works for me as most all such loads with Bullseye powder exhibit little or no “powder positioning” variance. It has been my practice and recommendation for several years that if one is wanting such reduced level loads with lighter weight bullets to reach for my “go to” powder; Bullseye.
I most often prefer to use a well fire formed case that is neck sized and expanded with the .4585 expander. There is an exception and I will cover it later. When cases offer too much resistance on closing the breech block I partial size them by backing out the Lee FL die so they are just a slip fit back into the chamber. Since beginning NSing and the partial sizing when needed I have not lost a case to splitting.
Speaking of Bullseye in the larger cases; many have great concern over the possibility of a “double charge” of powder in a case. I have found that the loads I use with the lighter weight bullets are almost always less than half of the “max” load anyway. Thus it would take a triple charge of powder for the psi to become excessive. I have also developed a loading habit with such reduced loads in addition to the most often recommended “visual check”. That habit is with the use of the loading block. I do not put a case in the loading block unless it has been charged with powder PERIOD!!!! I use small boxes or plastic “bins” to hold the cases while cleaning, inspecting, sizing and priming them. Never, ever do I put the case in a loading block until the one powder charge is put in (usually with the Lyman 55 but occasionally with dippers) and I do the visual after charging and before putting the case in the loading block. When loading reduced loads on the Dillon 550B I take the case out of the shell plate at station 3 and visually inspect for the powder level. Yes, that slows me down a bit but better safe than sorry.
Bullets; for reduced loads here for my purposes I am referring to bullets under 300 gr in weight. At 300 gr in weight a slower burning powder such as Unique becomes a bit more beneficial than Bullseye and will give better ballistics at upwards of 1400+ fps. Such loads above 1050 fps are outside the realm of my idea for such small game, plinking and light target shooting. Such heavier loads fall into the lighter weight target shooting and medium game capacity. I will note that one load I do use with the Rapine 460250 bullet loaded over Bullseye does overlap slightly into this arena. I do have a couple reduced loads using 390 – 405 gr bullets in the 900 – 1100 fps range but seldom even consider throwing that much lead when the lighter bullets do as well if not better.
Many years ago I worked with RBs (Hornady’s .457s to be exact and some cast with a Lyman RB mould). While I found them satisfactory for short range work to 25 yards they many times left a lot to be desired past 25 yards. I generally TL’d them in LLA and seated them over 2 – 5 gr Bullseye. I tried them seated at the case mouth and seated down on the powder. While seating them deep on top of the powder improved the internal ballistics greatly it really never did much for accuracy improvement. I always felt that the .457 RBs in the .458 H&Rs and the .461 M1884 barrel was probably the culprit. As I shoot RBs with very good accuracy to 50 yards in other cartridges with RBs that are at or slightly over groove diameter the undersized RBs in the TDs just didn’t impress me and I moved on.
I know some of you use the “collar button” bullets and many years back I did try them but only on the 50 ft indoor range. Have to say they worked very well there over Bullseye but I don’t have any record of the exact load. I do recall it was between 3 and 5 gr of Bullseye though. I will defer to others for better knowledge on those bullets. Only reason I didn’t pursue the CBs was because the ones I had were commercial (40-1 alloy from the old Liberty Cast Bullet Co from the Portland, OR area) and I had the Rapine 460210HB mould on order.
Ah, the Rapine 260210HB cast bullet…..now there is an excellent bullet for what we are talking about! It has a very short RNFP with a full diameter shoulder up front. It has a very long thin skirt with a deep conical HB. The length of the bullet gives it excellent stability in the slower TD barrel twist and the thin skirt ensures expansion and obturation with the lightest of loads. It is easily possible to over load it and blow the skirt, ruining accuracy, on muzzle exit. I worked it from 5 gr of Bullseye up through 9 gr with and without a dacron wad (back before I knew better). I quickly found that the dacron wad was not needed at all and that 6 gr of Bullseye gave it 910 fps out of the 29 ½” barreled TD. The bullets were seated with the Lee seater with the seating plug turned over so the flat part pushed on the FN of the 460210 during seating. Again I seated them so the leade engraved about 1/3 the front driving band when chambered. The taper crimp die was used to just straighten out the case mouth. Ten shot accuracy ran under 2” at 50 yards all day long. I most often used the bullets sized .4615 and lubed with my BP lube as that was best suited for both the larger groove M1884 barrel and the H&Rs with .458 barrels. An alloy with minimal antimony that is balance with tin or no antimony and is soft is better for even obturation of the skirt.
Exception mentioned; when traveling I many times take a Lee press (Lyman tong tool works as well as does the Lee decapping rod), a Lee hand priming tool, LR primers, some Bullseye and a dipper that throws 6 gr Bullseye along with extra bullets. “As cast” of the 460210 Rapine bullet is .463 - .464 with range lead alloy as described above. When TL’d with LLA they many times are easily thumb seated in the case and held there by slight neck tension. All I do is deprime, reprime, charge with one dipper of Bullseye, thumb seat the 460210 and they are ready to shoot. That is handy when sitting in camp plinking.
The slightly RNFP and full caliber shoulder of the Rapine 460210 bullet when cast soft like that and pushed along at 900 or so fps makes for a deadly small game load. Not a lot of meat damage (let’s face it a .460 caliber hole going through a squirrel, rabbit or grouse is going to damage some meat!) and excellent terminal effects. I shot a hapless coyote at about 35 – 40 paces who wondered by me once. The 460210 went through both front shoulders and lodged under the hide on the off side. The bullet had completely expanded donut rolling back on itself. ‘Yote jumped about 3’ in the air and made it 10 – 15’ in 6th gear overdrive before nose rolling to a dead stop (pun intended). But alas Rapine is out of business……the 460210 and other Rapine moulds no longer available unless someone takes on “honcho” duties and gets one custom made…….is my choice for indoor target/plinking and small game foraging out to 75 – 100 yards.
I tried a lot of pistol bullets (45 Colt & Webley 250 – 280 gr HB) in the 230 – 300 gr range. These were HB’d and PP’d. The HB’d always were grossly undersized for the M1884 barrel and didn’t shoot all that well and PPing for a plinking bullet grew tiresome real fast……..thus I got a Rapine 460250 RNFP mould. I was immediately happy with it and ordered another mould cut the same time as the first mould was. Both moulds throw identical bullets of 270 gr out of the range lead alloy. They drop at .461 and with both two cavity moulds going I can cast a lot of them quickly. I’ve got 300 WW cases I load them in and load them on the Dillon 550B. I worked the load from 6 gr upwards of 9,5 gr and settled on 8 gr of Bullseye with no wad or filler. I seat theses so the case mouth just covers the top lube groove and the taper crimp die again just straightens out the case mouth flare. This load gives 1050 fps +/- out of both H&Rs and 1140 fps out of the longer barreled M1884 TD. Accuracy out of all three TDs runs 1 ½ - 2 moa all day long. Again they are usually lubed with my BP lube but LLA works very well also.
I have shot the 460250 to 500 yards with outstanding accuracy. It is amazing how well that bullet holds up at longer range I could tell you a story about shooting alongside “Frank” (SF operative well represented in “Blackhawk Down”) with his tricked out SOTIC M24 at and SF training session in NE Oregon. I was shooting the H&R LBH Carbine with this load at a steel plate around 8x12” welded on a steel fence post out at 385 yards. Took me 1 sighter to get on and after the 1st shot Frank say; “bet you can’t do that again”. Well, 3 or 4 hits later Frank is shaking his head and I hit it 9 times straight before he said; “let me try”! And with that the M24 worth thousands of $s went neglected……….
I have played with the Lyman 457191 (290 gr) and the RCBS 45-300-FN (PB’d one) with 7.5 – 8.5 gr of Bullseye and they do as well in the H&Rs with .458 barrels. However, they don’t do as well “as cast” at .458 - .459 as the .461 Rapine in the larger M1884’s .461 barrel obviously because they are smaller than groove diameter. I also don’t get finicky about the alloy used with the 460250s as long as the antimony content is not too high. Too high an antimony content, especially with a real low tin % can easily result in an antimony wash in the longer barrel. This generally cleans out easily but if leading is also occurring it can be problematic. Also if you are depending on any “bumping up” obturation to seal the bore a lesser amount of antimony balanced with tin in a soft alloy is better. A 30-1 or 40-1 lead – tin alloy is even better.
One last load to mention here is my “foraging” shotshell load. Again I start with a well fire formed case with any make working fine. Prime with a standard LR primer, charge with 10 gr Unique, push a ½ gr dacron wad down over the powder (I use the eraser end of a pencil) and push/seat a Federal 410SC shot cup firmly on top of the wad of dacron. I use the same pencil to push/seat the shot cup. Fill the shot cup with shot (I prefer 8 ½ or 9 but # 7 works also, just remember the larger the diameter of shot the less dense the pattern will be). Set a .45 cal GC or a hard .010 or thicker .460+ diameter card disk upside down on top of the shot level with the case mouth. I use a 45 ACP 230 RN j bullet set on top of the over shot wad to hold in place just below the case neck while crimping the case mouth to hold it all sans the 45 cal bullet of course. A seating die that will roll crimp is needed. Adjust the seating dept so that when a good roll crimp is applied to the case mouth while the 45 ACP bullet is holding the GC or wad under the crimp. Crimp the case mouth sufficiently to hold the GC/wad in. This load runs right at 1160 fps out of my H&R Carbine. Out of the rifled barrels the shot pattern will “donut” as the range increases. I’ve found this load capable of taking quail, grouse and rabbits effectively out to about 20 yards. It can get “iffy” past that depending on the size of the game. If “foraging” the object is food so “sporting” takes a second seat. Thus I don’t have any qualms with ground sluicing the quail or grouse. Just mentioning the loads and use, not discussing the legality.
Anyways, those are my most often used loads. I’ve probably rambled on enough so let’s get on with specific questions and additions any of you have. I can take measurements and post pictures if you want (?) along with more details to answer specifics.
Larry Gibson
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 05-04-2013 at 07:45 PM.
Larry this is awesome....simply awesome. I'm going to have to re-read it several times to fully comprehend it all. But when I've done that...be prepared for a barrage of questions. Would you object to me printing out the information...strictly for my own use...and keeping a copy in my data notebook? Just in case something would happen to the website and (God forbid) we should lose the post. I'll have to get my girlfriend to show me how...comepletely computor illiterate here...but shall await your permission first. In the interim I've got my blackboard handy...jotting down copiuos notes....mainlining caffine into one arm and hoping I get a break from the 6 nights a week schedule I'm currently on. And again many thanks for taking the time to do all this for us. Audie.....the grateful Oldfart..
Larry
Thanks again for posting these. Truly awesome!!!!!!!
Go ahead and print it, nothing really propriety there just using casting/loading techniques I've picked up along the way from others that work for me. Enjoy.....
Larry Gibson
This has to be a sticky.
I'd also like to be in on the group buy for those Rapine molds.
I was a dog on a short chain.
Now there's no chain.
Jim Harrison
Rapine molds has closed down, I heard he retired.
Well Larry you certainly have come thru for us. And many thanks for permission to print this up and tuck it into my 45/70 data. I'm sorry it's taking me so long to get back...work schedule and doing a lot of casting right now. Sunday morning is about the only time I have and I'm on the range at 9 am. Anyways, I'm spending some time outlining questions so I can ask them in a linear fashion and not go twaddeling about willie nilly. I guess I'll start with cases. I've seen no mention or support in the post concerning annealing. I haven't done it...seems a bit too haphazard to me and I'd probably gammohooch it up. I have considered the "dip it in melted lead" idea. Figgered if I held the cases I'd soon find out when it's hot enough, but figgered I'd ask first. Now, mind ye, I've been loading and reloading these same 50 cases since...1980 something. I've never had one split. I've boogered up 3. (hit the durn die when I ran the ram up) And lately....I been loading them cases a lot!
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| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
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