My Trapdoor Loads, Technique and Equipment

[Doc Highwall]

As good as the black powder substitutes are they suck in comparison to real black powder for accuracy.

I think if I was to try a black powder substitute I would try either 777 or Blackhorn 209 powder.

[hp246]

Has anyone used a black powder substitute for the Goex and if so any particular brand work better? Also, would the charges be identical?

I just picked up a H & R Officers Model 24" barrel that I intend to use for CAS Side matches. The gentleman I bought the gun from had already done quite a bit of load development based on Spence Wolf's book. He recommended the Lee 405 Gr. HB bullet behind 55 gr of Goex FFG or Cartridge BP. He told me he had had poor luck with modern smokeless powders. Since I don't want to re-invent the wheel, I'd like to use basically the same load he used. Have my bullet mold ordered, as well as Spence Wolf's book. The problem that I'm having is finding any BP other than the substitutes. Even most smokeless is hard to find in my area, but the substitutes seem to be pretty plentiful. Is there any data that has been worked up with the various equivalents that that should the differences in BP? Or should I just assume they are 1 to 1 equivalent?

[Doc Highwall]

They are a 1 to 1 equivalent as far a volume but the Pryodex and 777 are slightly more powerful then real black powder. I think they are about 10% more powerful then real black powder IIRC.

If I had to choose a substitute I think I would use 777 as a first choice.

[hp246]

Thanks Doc. The guy I bought the gun from said he was going 55 gr by weight, not volume, I specifically asked that question. Does that sound right?

[Doc Highwall]

Actually you are suppose to measure Pyrodex by volume not weight due to having a different density then Real Black Powder. Set your black powder measure to 55 grains, then see what it weighs with a scale and play with +/- that for your compression.

[hp246]

Found some FFG Goex a couple days ago. Loaded up a dozen or so rounds and hope to get out and shoot this weekend. If it stops raining. Have a couple extra dies ordered to make up a wolf 5 die set, but I just have to get out and shot this thing and make some smoke. Thanks again for the info Doc.

[pjames32]

Larry,
All I can say is WOW. Today has been a rainy day in NM and I've been in my reloading room too much the past week so I fired up the computer and found this thread.
As you know, I've been working on 45-70 loads. Today I learned much more than I could have expected. I'll be re-reading all of this so my old mind can absorb more of the information provided.
I want to thank you for your knowledge and experience and most of all the willingness and ability to share this with us.
I've been reloading for 45-50 years, but have never delved into specific load development other than my centerfire rifle hunting loads. I'm learning!
Paul James (PJ)

[Bjornb]

How about making this a sticky? It's a treasure trove of loading info not only for Trapdoors; I have had excellent results shooting several of Larry's loads in H&R Handi-Rifles and in my Buffalo Classic.

[M-Tecs]

+2 on making it a sticky

[oldfart1956]

Here's another vote for making this a sticky! Almost anyone that loads for the 45/70 can benefit from it, and for a new loader it answers about 99% of their questions. I printed up copies of it for in the load data book, another in the file cabinet. Gibson rocks. Audie..the Oldfart..

[JHeath]

Larry, you had me at "Tex Shively." I remember him from gun shows when I was a sixteen or so, he was about the same generation as my mentor Gordon Chrudimsky of The Dalles, they were acquainted. Gordon -- himself a character -- would sometimes shake his head over Tex being a character! I always pay attention to your posts. TDs never caught my interest but now I'll have to give them some thought. High quality thread.

[smoked turkey]

Good thread indeed. There is a lot to absorb here. Should be a sticky for sure.

[30calflash]

Back to the top. I've read this thru a few times and getting some lead cast this week.

I've some other loads to fire and will then use the info here to get started with my trapdoor.

Has anyone tried 1F powder either straight up or in duplex loads?

[Sheridan64]

Hi,

Lurked quite a while in here so finally signed up.

Things I've been utilizing lately.

31gr 3031 pushing a 406gr (actual 397) SRS gas checked, CCI Mag. Excellent accuracy and smacks steel with authority at 100y in both an 1881 M73 and a 1891 M84.
55gr Pyrodex 2F, same bullet, etc. 1-3in groups (50 - 100y), same guns.
11.5-15gr Unique, same bullet, CCI Lg Pistol primer. 2-3in groups, light recoil. However....tip it up prior to shooting to get powder to the base. You can see where it was laying along the length of the case if you don't.

Mild lead deposits, but nothing some Patch Out didn't take care of.

Montana Precision 405gr hollow base pushed with 55gr 2F Goex did not perform as well, despite the cost. Saving all Goex on hand for flinters now. Will play with Schutzen as I can get my hands on it.

Cleaning....patch and jag wetted with Windex, followed by Patch Out if running gas checks, followed by Ballistol.

Yes...windex. Three swipes and the fouling residue is gone.

Next project will be Missouri Buffalo 1s, bumped up with Lee Alox and fight the block flip problem in a H&R LBH I picked up.

Anyway, glad to be here.

[John in PA]

What a phenomenal resource this thread is for those of us still in love with the "Old Pumpkin-Roller!" Pure Cast Boolit Gold!

[steveu]

If you want to get the most from your TD with black powder you need to wipe between shots.
Contact beltfed for one of his flexible rods for the TD.

Cheers,
Steve

[cosmoline one]

Ive never used dacron filler but I'm inspired by this thread to try 45-70 w/2400 loads (18-21grs.) & 405gr boolits I've got a couple questions which might seem dumb but I just want to be sure:
1-I ordered Dacron fill but what arrived is poly fill low loft quilt batting (polyester batting in sm print on bottom) Is this the same as Dacron/OK to use? Is it just a trademark name but otherwise exactly the same?
2.-Am I cutting a piece wider than my case (45-70) to fill the space between powder & boolit?.
3-Is it OK to have airspce between dacron & boolit? (while keeping powder against primer)

[Larry Gibson]

"1-I ordered Dacron fill but what arrived is poly fill low loft quilt batting (polyester batting in sm print on bottom) Is this the same as Dacron/OK to use? Is it just a trademark name but otherwise exactly the same?"

Yes, polyester batting is Dacron.

"2.-Am I cutting a piece wider than my case (45-70) to fill the space between powder & boolit?."

Yes, You want to cut a chunk large enough to fill the airspace between the powder and bullet base.

"3-Is it OK to have airspce between dacron & boolit? (while keeping powder against primer)"

No, that is a "wad" which you do not want. A Dacron "filler" will fill the airspace completely between the top of the powder and the base of the bullet.

[cosmoline one]

Thanks for clearing that up I appreciate your experience