Need advice on 500gr 45-70 smokeless

[swampsavage]

Got my cast boolit stuff today from Mid-South. Opted for the Lyman 475125 mold to get started. Now I can't seem to find any data for 500gr boolit for 45-70 other than one using H4198. Looking for starting load data to launch a few downrange. Rifle is a Uberti (Pedersoli) 1874 Sharps with 1 in 18" twist and 34" barrel. Might go to black powder but thought I'd try smokeless first. Just need some mild loads to lob big gobs of lead out there. Got the Lyman 4500 lube/sizer and .458 die to start with. Pedersoli puts about a 29,000 CUP limit on their product. Have all the necessary reloading equipment including scale. Any good info appreciated.

[45 2.1]

Try between 20 and 23 gr. of SR4759 with your boolits cast very soft. Try to just lube them, most molds don't cast big enough boolits as it is. I wouldn't size anything under 0.459" myself and would prefer bigger in this caliber.

[fourarmed]

Another excellent powder for this application is Accurate 5744. Check the load data on the Accurate website. Twenty grains will give a little over 1000 fps.

[HEAD0001]

I believe I have the same rifle. I shoot a 405 grain Lyman pill. I cast it in straight WW. I use 40.0 grains of RL7 at 1600 fps. No GC, and no leading problem. You can get more shots per pound out of the other powder's listed, but I do not like them. I do not like to use a filler, and IMO 20 grain loads can be position sensitive in the big old 45-70 case. I have seen erratic pressure and accuracy results in the 45-70 with the 20 grain loads. I will pay the extra for powder. I know some guy's may argue with me on this point, but I am just giving my opinion. I mean no disrespect to the other's. I load for four 45-70's, and this load shots great in all of them.

I would start out around 35 grains of RL7 with the larger bullets, but I am sure there is someone here who could give better advice than me. Tom.

[chunkum]

Just recently did some range testing with a Postell bullet of about 520 grs over 24.5 grs of 5744. The avg mvl clocked an avg or 1250 fps. This was in a 32" barrel on a "domesticated" Buffalo Classic.


Best Regards,
chunkum

[fourarmed]

I worried about the powder position, too. I was loading for my cousin's 45-110. I loaded 20-something gr. of 5744 behind the 457125 with and without a dacron filler. To my utter astonishment, the load WITHOUT filler showed an extreme spread in velocity about one tenth the one with the filler, and the groups were about one third the size. I know that is atypical of many powders, but in that application, a small volume of powder in a large case was not a problem.

[chunkum]

I've had the same experience with 5744. No posiition sensitivity that I can detect.
c.

[lawboy]

I shoot the lyman 457125 seated deep for a oal of 2.55. I shoot it in an 1895 Cowboy. My go to load is 23.0grs Re7. I also use 23-25grs 4891, and 25grs 3033. All Loads have proven very accurate. I will be trying 4064, 4895, and 4320 shortly with similarly small charges in the 25-30 grain range. These are used for offhand steel plate shooting at 100 yards.

[hs45/70]

Useing the Lyman #457658 PB....

33.0 gr. Reloder 7 ....1373..1394...1377 fps @ 1.50 inch/100yards

14.8 Grains Unique...1093...1104...1111 fps @1.75/ 100 yards

Not sure of the cups/psi pressure...
45.0 gr Imr 3031 1467..1487..1464 fps @1.70 inch / 100yds

24.0 Gr. A2400 ...1329...1333...1324 fps @ 1.60 inch /100 yds

The 500 Lee gc with 24.0 gr. A2400 and 45.0 Gr. Imr3031 shoot 1.00 inch consistantly/3 shots only/100 yds..all above loads shot in Ruger #3 ..scoped.

[swampsavage]

....was beginning to think the 457125 was a black powder only boolit. You folks have given me many other options to choose from. My rifle looks the same as your's Tom except it has a gold buffalo head on each side of the receiver. Same nose cap and wood as near as I can tell from the picture. I really like the muzzle heavy rifles. Can't hold 'em long but they really settle down rock-steady shootin' offhand.

John

[lovedogs]

My wife and I both shoot 500 gr. 20:1 alloy using 5744. All other powders we tried with reduced loads were position sensitive. Our rifles both shoot W-W brass, CCI 200's, 23 1/2 gr. 5744, 500 gr. 1881 Saeco bullets, Larsen's 50/50 lube, sized .459. Our rifles shoot this load into MOA at all ranges. In fact, we've had some 5 to 6 in. groups at the 876 yd. limit of our range. Don't worry about the dirty burn, it does no harm. Vel. is just under 1200 FPS.

[Buckshot]

..............I'd give IMR3031 a look. So far as I'm concerned IMR3031 is the maximum effort powder in the 45-70. Reduced velocity loads Often have me using SR4759, 4227, or 4198 but I'm loading 300 to 405gr slugs. While these powder will get you there, for the big heavy 500gr slugs I'd be more inclined to go with 3031 starting with 35grs to start, or even 4895 at 38grs to start.

Neither powder is difficult to ignite. Either one will do better at filling the case even at the velocities you're looking for. Over either powder I would use a tuft of dacron.

..................Buckshot

[montana_charlie]

I don't use smokeless in my Sharps, and don't plan to. Therefore, I seldom read threads dealing with that subject.
But, I did recall seeing some information on the Shiloh site that might pertain to your question, so I went there to look around.

I was looking specifically for comments (on smokeless) made by Kirk Bryant...the owner of Shiloh Rifles...the man who makes the guns. Anything he says about a Shiloh Sharps can (IMO) be transferred verbatim to the Pedersoli guns.

The three most revealing points I found are these:

While Kirk uses only black powder, himself, he believes that more than half of the rifles he sells are used with smokeless. He says that is just fine, as long as the gun is chambered for one of the calibers that factory smokeless loads can be found for. That leaves out the 'longer' .45's, and several others.

After experimentation, he has proven (to his own satisfaction) that smokeless loads are not capable of the long range accuracy that is attainable with black powder. The prevailing theory on the reason is that smokeless loads can't get down to the low SD and ES necessary for 'small groups' beyond 300 yards (or so).

In those chamberings that factory smokeless loads are available for, Kirk recommends AA5744 as the best powder choice.

That is everything I know about this subject...
CM

[45 2.1]

I don't use smokeless in my Sharps, and don't plan to. Therefore, I seldom read threads dealing with that subject.
But, I did recall seeing some information on the Shiloh site that might pertain to your question, so I went there to look around.

I was looking specifically for comments (on smokeless) made by Kirk Bryant...the owner of Shiloh Rifles...the man who makes the guns. Anything he says about a Shiloh Sharps can (IMO) be transferred verbatim to the Pedersoli guns.

The three most revealing points I found are these:

While Kirk uses only black powder, himself, he believes that more than half of the rifles he sells are used with smokeless. He says that is just fine, as long as the gun is chambered for one of the calibers that factory smokeless loads can be found for. That leaves out the 'longer' .45's, and several others.

After experimentation, he has proven (to his own satisfaction) that smokeless loads are not capable of the long range accuracy that is attainable with black powder. The prevailing theory on the reason is that smokeless loads can't get down to the low SD and ES necessary for 'small groups' beyond 300 yards (or so).

In those chamberings that factory smokeless loads are available for, Kirk recommends AA5744 as the best powder choice.

That is everything I know about this subject...
CM

This is hilarious! If those of you had spent as much time learning the right way to load smokeless as you did to learn how to do it with blackpowder, you would have found out that certain smokeless powders will do the low single digit velocity spreads along with superb long range accuracy. AA5744, from an early lot, was really a poor powder in this regard for me. So for those that just dabble with smokeless, what you find to your own satisfaction isn't necessarily fact. I haven't seen a published blackpowder group yet that I and other people I know haven't outdone. Each has its own requirements, none of which i've seen written up to any detail.

[lovedogs]

I, too, have read of the many "experts" who claim that black powder will outshoot smokeless but after careful loading of smokeless I have to wonder. I don't mean to brag but I've yet to see anyone shooting black that would outshoot my plain ol' Buffalo Classic using the above-mentioned load. The wife and I are using Lee Shaver's sight and both rifles will shoot into an inch at 100 yds. when we do it right. At 200 they still shoot into about 2 1/2 inches. Last year the wife was having a good day at 550 yds. and shot a 5 in. group! On several occasions I've shot 5 to 6 in. groups at 876 yds. Until I had some people witness some of this shooting at the range many were all but calling me a liar but now they are just wondering how we do it.

It's no secret. It's just like loading jacketed stuff in bolt target rifles, you pay attention to details and be as consistent as possible. We typically get vel. spreads of only single digit to the teens using our methods and 5744 powder. Weigh the cases. Uniform the primer pockets. Weigh the bullets. Use good reloading practices and do a little research with different seating depths. Then, of course, you must be capable of shooting well.

At our annual match we have shooters from all over and some are using expensive rifles with sights that cost more than all my equipment put together. But if you don't put in the time to figure out what shoots best and then practice good shooting technique it's all pretty much a waste of time. You could say it's mostly in the care you take to do it right. So far we have seen no one outshoot these two "cheap" rifles, regardless of cost or which powder they're using.

Bottom line? Do it right and it probably doesn't matter whether you use black or smokeless powder. I just hate black powder so I use smokeless. With the results we're having I can't see any reason to change. Can you?

[montana_charlie]

With the results we're having I can't see any reason to change. Can you?

Nope.
I was just passing on information from an identified source...after stating I had no experience or knowledge of my own.
CM

[leftiye]

45 2.1, I was happy to hear your comments that as good or better accuracy could be had with smokeless as/than with BP in the 45-70 as I have virtually no interest in BP. I'm sure however that we all would rather have heard which powders you'd recomend, and any techniques you might want to reveal that might be helpful that you and your friends might have discovered. All hilarity aside.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1, I was happy to hear your comments that as good or better accuracy could be had with smokeless as/than with BP in the 45-70 as I have virtually no interest in BP. I'm sure however that we all would rather have heard which powders you'd recomend, and any techniques you might want to reveal that might be helpful that you and your friends might have discovered. All hilarity aside.

I've posted almost all of the techniques on open forum several times beginning with the shooters board. I got NO response from these except for two people who read all of my posts and PM'd me. They are the ones who are shooting nice small long range groups now. Learning how is a one on one thing it seems as any efforts i've put forth on open forum have been nil.

BTW, did you even look at post two, three biggies there on what to use.

[Topper]

I've been using IMR3031 & H4895 for the 500gr Lee GC in my 45/70 Encore with good results.
Really rocks an 8lb metal plate @ 100 yds

[John Boy]

Swampsavage ... may I recommend you purchasing the Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook. Lyman tests all the bullets for the molds that they sell, ie ... Lyman 457125

They list 8 powder charges for the 457125, with XMP 5744 showing the best results at 23.0 - 28.0grs (min - max). They tested the bullet @ 1:20 alloy with a BC of 0.402 and a Sectional Density of 0.364.

Great book to have next to your reloading equipment