OK, I'm going for it.... I think.

[303Guy]

Sounds perfect. They look good too. OK then, it sounds like it is just a matter of stepping up the load until you find the sweet spot. It's probably about enough velocity to jettison the patch evenly at the muzzle. Oh, could you post a pic of the boolits, please? Those are always interesting.

[Any Cal.]

They are a bit fuzzy from rattling in a jar, they're a bit slicker fresh. They get some JPW so they twist into the case without tearing the patch. My concern right now is finding an efficient powder that will get me to 2200. I have some 4064 that may get there at about 60g, but I would like to do it w/ 40 so I can shoot more... Well, that and getting some good accuracy, but that will be ongoing, I think.

[Any Cal.]

Well, 20g of 2400 gave 1265fps.

30g of 2400 gave 1738fps and 7" pattern @ 50 yds.

60g of 4064 gave 1981fps and 7" pattern @ 50 yds, one keyholed or something.

Well, I think I need a new paper, this one kept shrinking down to .3755, or else maybe open up the core size another .001. The patches are starting to shine the barrel up! Leaning towards increasing the core size, as that will tightn up the fit some too.


-edit- sizer is now .367+, and I patched a few bullets w/ the same paper to measure. Will see what happens. I am currently working under the assumption that the higher pressures are messing up the patch, so a larger core may give more compression to the patch, as well as better transfer of rotation from rifling to boolit.

[303Guy]

I was going to suggest a shade thicker paper so that twist inserting start needs to be followed by press seating for completing but you were ahead of me. So you will have that now. I don't think higher pressure will mess up the patch. Your rifle's throat is different to mine so I'm a bit out of suggestions. My experience is reasonable groups up to about 50yds then going south beyond that. Sometimes it would be OK then a rapid spreading out and sometimes a sort of linear spreading. With one rifle I developed the load in the lab so to speak then took it out and had success. I had a thread on it so I'll try find it. A rifle I am playing with now is behaving differently in that the patch is staying whole throughout the trip down the barrel and seems be jettisoning at the muzzle but one piece is the whole inner wrap whereas the other rifle confettied the patch.

P.S. Those boolits look good!

[303Guy]

Here it is. One of the pics is gone but not important.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-with-303-Brit

[Any Cal.]

Well, tried my new set-up. .367+ cores patched up to .3755+. Still nada. 5-7" groups @ 50 yds. Not sure where to go from here... I don't think anything will chamber if I go much bigger, but everything shoots like it is rattling down the bore. Random placement, the only thing I can be sure of is that the bull will not get hit... At least they all made round holes this time.

Juggling the idea of adding .0005 to the core or finding yet another paper that is slightly thicker, or perhaps sizing wrapped bullets down in a sizer. Possibly changing to a slower powder, I have a lb of #9 that I could burn.

Thoughts?

-OK- I went to a slightly thicker paper that is about .0005 too big for the throat. If it works, great, if not I will attempt to size it down slightly and see what happens then.

[Any Cal.]

If I use a boolit .001 over the throat size, what will happen? Will it just size down the patch or will it rip it off first thing? I am wrapping past the ogive.

[303Guy]

It should just size the boolit to the bore. The patch will size the core even is it is slightly under bore size as in the nose where the ogive is under bore diameter. How much depends on core hardness.

[Any Cal.]

Getting closer. I had 20 with the new paper, 10 patched well, and 10 patched sloppily, using 30g 2400. The poor ones went into about 7-8" @ 100 yds, the better ones did about 4-5" as best as I could tell. They were all shot on the same target, but the last bunch of holes were grouped a lot tighter.

Gun has faux express sights w/ a 13 1/2" radius, so some of that could have been a combination of myself and the sighting system.

Next will be slower powders, (#9 & 4064), extra attention to detail on casting and patching, and most likely a reciever mounted sight. Possibly a different paper lube if I can find one that won't soak in at all, like a candle wax.

Would it do any good to open up the throat .001" or so to fit a slightly larger patch?

[303Guy]

Would it do any good to open up the throat .001" or so to fit a slightly larger patch?

Well now, that's a loaded question. I would think so but to recommend it to someone ..... well you know, it's irreversible. I've often wanted to do it with my fresher bore rifles but I don't have the skill to do it properly (other than by fire-lapping). So Instead, I've been playing around with molds and sizers. My next sizer is going to be made in three separate parts to fit into the main body so I can get each area of the boolit just right.

Also using the just right chamber pressure and alloy strength will get the undersize areas of the boolit to obturate fully. Still to try that one on the range.

[303Guy]

[QUOTE] Possibly a different paper lube if I can find one that won't soak in at all, like a candle wax.[/QUOTI wouldn't suggest candle was as that has to be melted to apply and will saturate the paper which may or may not be a good thing. I'd suggest carnauba based boot polish. I normally use my lube pad lube which is STP smoke stopper. This gets applied twice, first when I seat the boolit and then again when I lube the whole cartridge. That seems to put enough lube on the paper.

[Nobade]

Next will be slower powders, (#9 & 4064), extra attention to detail on casting and patching, and most likely a reciever mounted sight. Possibly a different paper lube if I can find one that won't soak in at all, like a candle wax.

Would it do any good to open up the throat .001" or so to fit a slightly larger patch?

4064 isn't exactly what I would call a slow powder. I believe you will find much more happiness using powders far on the slow side of what is normally considered appropriate for the application. My own 375 (Taylor) just rips with WW760, but that normally would be considered too slow. It also is extremely accurate with WW780, and various surplus 50 BMG powders if duplex loaded. Progressive burning ball powders make all this a whole lot easier.

As for the throat, what does it look like now? I doubt you would gain anything by making it bigger. I am not familiar with that the standard Ruger throat looks like in those rifles, but I am betting it is plenty big but not very long. Have you done a chamber cast or impact impression of it to get familiar with what the ammo needs to look like?

-Nobade

[Any Cal.]

I did a pound cast, and the throat is .001" larger than groove diameter, not very long before the leade. It is difficult to get a paper that fits in the size window between groove + and still close to throat size. The neck size will preclude me using much bigger anyway, or I doubt the cases would chamber. A boolit could be compressed in the case though, and a slightly larger throat accept it.

If I could track down some surplus powders that would work. I hate to run through Rx 15 or 19 at 75+ grains a pop if I can help it. I didn't mean that 4064 was slow, just slower than the 2400. Also, not trying for full velocity, if it matters, will be happy with 2200fps in whichever bullet weight.

[Any Cal.]

Bleh, I tried some nicely wrapped boolits w/ various charges of #9. As charge increased, groups opened up, with 40 g I got multiple keyholes. The rest of the bunch became blasting ammo. I also switched to as little lube as possible, and went to cooked down JPW, figuring that there would be less to soak in.

Next try will be the same well-wrapped boolits w/ 4064, if still nothing than on to some slow powders. Fighting the urge to make the core .0005" bigger.

[geargnasher]

I'm still trying to figure you how you expect cores that are smaller than the bore diameter to shoot. The results you're getting are quite typical for the dimensions you're using. You didn't read Pdawg's sticky, did you?

Now, open yer freakin' boolit sizer up until your cores come out at a minimum of .3695", find some thin paper that will dry two wraps to .376", size your brass just enough to hold them, seat them to engrave the patch, stuff the case with a starting load of something like Nobade suggested, top it off with some loosely fluffed Dacron, and have another go.

Opening the throat a couple of thousandths with a nice, long, gentle taper (you can get a custom throating reamer with a pilot that fits your bore for about fifty bucks) will help immensely. That way you can patch a larger boolit and get your chamber neck clearance down. Then you can start experimenting with compacting buffers and ball powder together and get down to the accuracy level you were shooting with the copper-jacketed stuff.

How about doing a good pound cast and show us a pic? Take a fired case. Heat the case with a propane torch until it anneals and fill it with WHEEL WEIGHT metal about halfway up the neck. Cast a pure lead boolit out of the mould you're using. Clean and lightly oil the barrel and chamber. Clean and oil the case and boolit. Insert the boolit in the case and force it to chamber. Wrap a 5/16" brass rod from the hardware store in one layer of electrical tape. Start a gas check into the muzzle with a brass punch and push it all the way down to the chambered boolit nose with the rod, being careful not to let it get cocked sideways. Smack the rod a few times with a hammer while holding it to prevent rebound. Lead hammer or deadblow mallet is your friend here. When it feels "solid" it's done. Use the brass rod with pressure on it while opening the action to aid in extracting the case without the boolit coming out of the neck.

Gear

[Any Cal.]

I've read the sticky over and over, trying to figure out what I am missing. In any case, I did the pound cast, but it is not pretty, as the lube grooves sort of distort it. Well, that and I didn't have a 1/4" brass rod... I tried to run it a second time, but it doesn't look any better. It is the first time I got a solid lead impression though, so it did tell me a few things.

The chamber is about .140" long before the rifling starts, and is about .378", which is bigger than the other cast I made by about .001", I guess because this one was solid lead.

Bore size is tough to tell, but looks like . 369" or so at the chamber end, +/-. The slug I had passed through the bore runs about .366", but was tighter in the middle of the barrel and not pure Pb, so I guess about .002" of restriction towards the 1/3 of the barrel toward the muzzle.

Groove size still looks to be about .375"+ at the chamber end.

Am going to go ream out the sizer die another .0015" and go from there. Guess I need to cast some more boolits as well.

[geargnasher]

Looks like a pretty sharp angle at the end of the chamber where it steps down to the throat entrance. This is one of the important parts to look at so you can answer your own question of whether or not to ream the entrance or whether you can patch larger than throat entrance. Looks to me like yours will scrape pretty bad if you use anything larger than .378".

Ideally (IMO) your patched boolit should be a snug twist-fit into a fired case mouth, yet still be a half-thousandth or so smaller than the throat entrance. Unfortunately, that almost never happens with modern firearms. The chamber necks are notoriously huge and brass runs thin. The throat entrances are more on the smallish side that gives better accuracy with copper-jacketed bullets. Since squeezing down quite a bit isn't usually a tough or dangerous task for cast or PP boolits, the best option for accuracy is often to ream the throat so a bigger boolit (one that makes for minimal chamber neck clearance with the loaded cartridge) can be used without scraping or shaving at the throat entrance.

Try the bigger cores and thinner paper first, and be thinking about a larger, longer throating reamer from Manson or PTG.

Gear

[Any Cal.]

So I open up the sizer die to .370 and get set to cast a few. Apparently the fishing weights I used for the pound cast had something nasty, and left some gunky alloy in my mold that won't come out. I can still cast w/ one cavity, so put a few through, but they come out kind of nasty. Whatever, size them, wrap them, measure. Well, one paper will work perfect, but I only have a little, and it won't go on nicely like it was. So, I have 7 boolits to work with, and 13 more w/ some larger paper.

I get out to the range, and can not find my holes on the target. Looking at the rear sight, it moved when I was making the pound cast. Well, can't find my shots before I have gone through the 7 good boolits, now onto the larger paper. The larger paper is giving me a paper ring, and I still can't hit a 28" gong @ 100yds. All out of ammo, and I never did see a boolit hole. The bore seems awfully dark, what is going on here? Oh look, I have lead. Too bad the last bore brush is all messed up from my CerroSafe adventure.

Will see what happens. I will either persevere or go throw the gun in a lake. Probably at least a week before I can figure out if the new core size works. Hoping I can shoot old undersize paper patch to clean out the lead. New bore brushes, a new mold... Bleh, I was excited about getting some decent groups today. I hope someone had a better day shooting!

[geargnasher]

If it makes you feel any better I splintered the heel of a mint-condition 1966 100-year anniversary edition Model 94 Winchester today, *** Lead Sled and their lousy buttstock brace caught the crecent buttplate in just the wrong place and crushed it and the wood in five shots. Also bent the tang and peened the forward upper corners of the buttstock. I knew it was a bad design as several other rifles have cut through the padding in different places, so I was using a strip of leather back there but all the recoil force on the heel of the stock was too much. So not I have to fix a 24K plated buttplate without ruining it, and figure how to re-glue the splintered wood and then refinish the whole thing. The tang will have to be tweaked, again a fun proposition because the whole receiver is gold-plated too. Did I mention it was mint? First five rounds it's seen in it's life and royally screwed it up. To make things better, it isn't even mine, I was fixing it up to shoot (full strip, clean, and lube) with some ammo for my stepdad. So yeah, I feel your pain. Only good news was the group cut a 9/16" hole at 50 yards, just high and left of the 3" black circle I was using for a bull. My eyes are so bad and it was so fuzzy that I just centered the blade on the 8.5x11 paper and let 'em rip. Guess I did pretty good!

Sounds like the thick paper scraped off in the throat and left some naked boolit exposed, they'll lead like crazy if that happens. Good news is a patch cut from a 100% copper Chore Boy or O'Cedar scouring pad, wrapped around a bronze bore brush, will get that lead out in a few swipes. Finish with some four-ought steel or bronze wool wrapped around a different brush, or simply let the paper clear it out in a few shots after you get the worst of it with the Chore Boy.

Gear

[Any Cal.]

OK, you definitely win. Thanks for the story though, first time i smiled in a couple hours, though it was the same kind of smile you have watching a painful funniest video.

I had forgotten all about Chore Boy, I will have to dig some up.

Alright everyone, step up. You have to have had a better day than me or a day that makes Gear's look like a cake walk...