Registration with department of state to sell a few projectiles?

[kweidner]

Whatever The case, it seems even the ATF is unclear about ITAR. Paperwork is en-route. Agent informed me that it is currently a discussion at DOS and they may be tiering the fee to what you are producing. Right now the fee is the same whether you are making mortars, abram tanks, or 45acp. I will gladly comply to get my foot in the door. I currently have no less than a dozen local gun shops that will gladly stock my product. I just have to wait for paperwork to go. at single man production rates, it will only take less than two weeks to armatorize the fees for DOS registration, ffl, insurance and business license. I am willing to make that happen no problem. I am going to go ahead and produce ammunition instead of just trying to make this adventure work with casting swaging alone. There is more money in it especially given the current endemic. Insurance is in the works, LLC is being applied for, as is the ffl and ITAR. Anything worth doing takes money.
My long range shooting has developed a reputation over the years and my LGS is asking me to provide a premium custom reloading service catered to this as well. This premium ammunition has a ton more profit potential than selling swaged or cast bullets alone. Guys are spending 50 dollars for 20 rifle cartridges that they don't even know will shoot in their gun. While I am awaiting paperwork I will be loading my current bullseye recipies for quick sell once everything clears.

[MBTcustom]

Look, ITAR stands for International Traffic in Arms Regulations.
I am an 07 FFL. I can legally make and sell ammo to American citizens. If I care to send my personally branded ammo to England, that's another story. I would have to buy an international licence.
My 07 also allows me to receive and sell firearms.......from US citizens. If I want to receive a firearm from a man in England, then I am going to have to shell out oven more money in order to receive international imports.

You need to do some research, because this just isn't making any sense. Why do you need a licence to sell internationally to sell to US citizens?
That's like getting a passport to fly to Texas!

[elginrunner]

This very thing kept me from opening a business, had it all lined up and never in my wildest dreams thought that "must be registered with state dept" = $2250 yr. FWIW it was $600 /5 years in previous adminastrations ( i think)

[MBTcustom]

My mistake, I just called the ATF. This is absolute BS, but it is the law. Simply amazing. I guess I wont be selling any ammo after all.

[SquirrelHollow]

My mistake, I just called the ATF. This is absolute BS, but it is the law.

That's what we've been trying to point out here.

[DukeInFlorida]

Welcome to the reality that we have been trying to gt you guys to see and understand.

Even cast boolits require the license fro ATF and the ITAR........ But jacketed bullets are MOST certainly in their current radar!!!

I'd be careful even selling unprocessed cast bullets at this point..... SPIES everywhere!!!!

My mistake, I just called the ATF. This is absolute BS, but it is the law. Simply amazing. I guess I wont be selling any ammo after all.

[doulos]

Another governmental agency that makes up rules as they go along. .

[RP]

Well I say F them with a big one give the bullets away with anyone that is willing to fund further research to develop a better product. Or anyone will to test them for performance. Sorry could not sit by and not say anything carry on.

[MBTcustom]

Well, I made a mistake. The ATF agent that got me set up and lined out for my business left that detail completely out of the conversation. I apologize for the error, but sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. It seems really stupid that you would have to get an inernational licence to sell to American citizens.
I humbly admit my mistake, but I also wrote a letter to my congressman today detailing my displeasure about this.
I suggest you do the same.
What a crock!
Sorry guys, I thought I knew the law, but I was wrong.

[DukeInFlorida]

I urge you, and every other gun owner who is serious about your gun rights, and wants to know how the ATF has come to be what they are........ to get a copy of a book by one of the members here at CastBoolits, John Ross. The book is named, "Unintended Consequences"............. The book is currently out of print, and many of us have been urging John to republish. The government tried to keep him from publishing in the first place. The time is very near for the type of civil unrest that is portrayed in the book, which is what the gov't is afraid of.



John's website is here:
http://john-ross.net/

Some background FAQ regarding the book:
http://john-ross.net/faq.php

The publishers web site:
http://www.accuratepress.net/ross.html

A very unofficial and unauthorized pdf copy of the book, floating around on the internet:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/941683/John...nsequences.pdf

Some additional free downloads of the book from eBook3000.com:
http://www.ebook3000.com/ipad-iphone...ss_127434.html

I own a hard bound copy of the book, and let it out to close friends only.

After reading the book, you will have a VERY clear understanding of what we are really dealing with. The ATF is much more evil in their means and tactics that anyone could ever imagine.

Please.... I am begging you all to read the book, in some form or another. And, once you have, share it with as many others as you can. Please!

Another governmental agency that makes up rules as they go along. .

[Adam10mm]

OK, holy **** there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. Let me clear things up with facts.

An FFL is only required if you sell bullets you manufactured. If you buy and sell Winchester, Federal, etc there is no FFL required.

If you manufacture anything on the Munitions List that are Defensive Articles under ITAR, you must register as a manufacturer. It doesn't matter if you export or not, it doesn't matter if you make anything for the military or not, if it's on the list and you manufacture it, you must register. It's not a license or permit, it's a registration. The purpose of mandating the registration of all manufacturers is the government wants to know who is manufacturing these items in case they are eventually exported or used by a non-civilian entity.

There are a few very strict exemptions to ITAR that apply to the firearms industry. "Sporting shotgun and sporting shotgun ammunition" and research and development. The US State department is no longer approving commodities jurisdiction so don't waste your time trying to convince the State Department that cast bullets aren't a defensive article subject to ITAR registration. They will deny it and continue to deny it.

For the doubting Thomas' among us, here is the law for you to read yourself:

http://pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_..._official.html

Of interest to manufacturers, read ITAR part 122.1:

§ 122.1 Registration requirements.
(a) Any person who engages in the
United States in the business of either
manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is
required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. For
the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in the business of manufacturing or
exporting defense articles or furnishing
defense services requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting a
defense article or furnishing a defense service. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless
register.
(b) Exemptions. Registration is not required for:
(1) Officers and employees of the
United States Government acting in an
official capacity.
(2) Persons whose pertinent business
activity is confined to the production
of unclassified technical data only.
(3) Persons all of whose manufacturing and export activities are licensed under the Atomic Energy Act of
1954, as amended.
(4) Persons who engage only in the
fabrication of articles for experimental
or scientific purpose, including research and development.
(c) Purpose. Registration is primarily
a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on
who is involved in certain manufacturing and exporting activities. Registration does not confer any export
rights or privileges. It is generally a
precondition to the issuance of any license or other approval under this subchapter.

[BT Sniper]

Get a small business grant from the government in order to start up.. That'd be the true definition of irony.

And a "green" enviornmental bonus for recycling brass cases!

[oldtoolsniper]

I know everyone hates Obama, but give it a rest. All this **** was in place long before he was elected, and Bush/Chaney didn't do anything to aleviate the situation. On the other hand, I would sell lead scrap in the form of HG 68s with a bit of grease on them for a reasonable price. Now prove they are not throw-aways that didn't meet my standards for personal use. Unless you get into major numbers or have a case of feloniousy stupid mouth with someone from ATF who really cares.

Who really cares? That's why we are in this situation to begin with. People who seem to think all of these regulations don't matter. I need a permit to put shingles on my own house because people don't care.

Not caring is exactly the problem!

Chaney didn't do anything. He did too, he shot a lawyer!

[Marlin Junky]

This is kinda off topic and I normally don't go to gunshows anyway; however, are the gunshows in gun friendly states crawling with Federal Agents (ATF, etc.)? You know, those states where you don't need background checks to purchase anything more dangerous than an air rifle?

MJ

[preachinpilot]

I am going for an 07 instead of an 06 due to the reasons that they really cost the same, still owe an ITAR fine, yet I can do coatings , firearms transfers, etc. Just a little extra business opportunity to help pay the FINES for wanting to make a buck.

[Adam10mm]

That's why I went from an 06 to an 07. I can do bullets, ammunition, gunsmithing, gun sales, transfers, plus as an 02 SOT I can do NFA stuff as well. Only things I can't do are destructive devices and armor piercing ammunition, which suits me fine.

[Wolftracker]

Ok, just some questions. Has anyone ever been charged, convicted or fined for NOT registering with ITAR and selling home swaged bullets locally? Anyone? Charged by whom? I'm not a lawyer, but this looks like something any judge worth spit would laugh out of court if someone tried. Who enforces this bureaucratic rule? Who collects the tax or fee, exactly? I realize that no one, including myself wishes to take the chance of losing and going to jail. That is what our enemies (yes, enemies) are counting on. Perhaps NRA lawyers could take them on for us. That is the value of fighting as a team and belonging to an organization when you are out numbered.

[doulos]

freakshow10mm
Wow thanks for posting the regs. I didnt read down through them far enough and just skimmed over it. That is an insane registration fee.

[Adam10mm]

Ok, just some questions. Has anyone ever been charged, convicted or fined for NOT registering with ITAR and selling home swaged bullets locally? Anyone? Charged by whom? I'm not a lawyer, but this looks like something any judge worth spit would laugh out of court if someone tried. Who enforces this bureaucratic rule? Who collects the tax or fee, exactly? I realize that no one, including myself wishes to take the chance of losing and going to jail. That is what our enemies (yes, enemies) are counting on. Perhaps NRA lawyers could take them on for us. That is the value of fighting as a team and belonging to an organization when you are out numbered.

Don't know specifically of swaged bullets. I do know of one ammunition reloader that was shut down due to noncompliance of ITAR registration. It was called Blue Bunny Ammunition. The owners were investigated by the US State Department and the federal prosecutor. The State Department and the DOJ enforce the law. The State Department collects the registration fee and only does so by wire transfer. No checks or certified funds. Wire transfer only. The owner's stuck a deal with the prosecutor that they would give up their 06 FFL as an ammunition manufacturer, obtain an 01 FFL as a firearms dealer, charges would be dropped and they would receive no fine or jail time. The US State Department agreed and it was so.

At one time the State Department had a list online of convicted ITAR violators. I'm not sure if they still do or not.

I've heard talk in the industry about the State Department figuring something out for small manufactures for domestic markets that still would require registration but at a significantly reduced fee, like $500 or $1,000 fee much like the SOT tax classes for large and small manufacturers. I wouldn't hold my breath.

[aaronraad]

I've heard talk in the industry about the State Department figuring something out for small manufactures for domestic markets that still would require registration but at a significantly reduced fee, like $500 or $1,000 fee much like the SOT tax classes for large and small manufacturers. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Surely a risk based type cost system would be more beneficial to all parties. Simialar to what they do for business that pose an environmental risk and require a permit.

Example - based on projectiles sold/year 0-1000lbs $50/yr; 1000-5000lbs $250/yr; +5000lbs $2,500/yr.

Not sure about the weights but I think you get the idea.

I always get strange looks when I suggest starting a custom bullet makers guild or similar in Australia. Obviously the NRA puts a lot of effort into standing up for the big companies in the US. I don't see how the NRA would be too keen on standing up for the small custom manufacturers, given they're taking away sales/$ from the big companies contributing a lot more to the NRA kity.