Registration with department of state to sell a few projectiles?

[Reload3006]

ITAR is for export and import. If you conduct business with only U.S. Citizens in the United States ITAR is not applicable. If you even give a foreign national information or a U.S. Citizen working for a foreign owned firm or as an agent of a foreign national you have made an export. An export does not have to be a product it can also be information knowingly given or not. When it comes to arms related stuff such as bullet jackets etc ITAR comes in to play and is under the State Department. So as far as selling jackets or bullets for a business is concerned Either get an export license or do not do business that requires an export.

[MBTcustom]

Alright, call me an idiot, but do they really put these kinds of controls on projectiles? I understand loaded ammo, or explosive components, but swaged bullets?
Where do our boolit mold fit into this lovely system?
I wonder if you got ahold of someone and explained that you are making bullets, and they thought you meant loaded ammunition? There are thousands of pencil pushers who's eyes would glaze over if you explained the four components, and that they actually come apart.

When it comes to dealing with the ATF, you need to do your own research. You can talk to three different agents, and get three different answers.
Another thing. They dont have the resources to track down every Tom Dick an Hairy and look over their operation. They go after folks that get on their radar by doing something very visible. If you are selling locally, and you are not doing anything with loaded ammo (blow someone up and get sued) its hard for me to see how you would end up on their radar, and even if you did, would they throw you under the jail for making a few bullets on the side? I just don't see it.

Keep your nose clean, keep you mouth shut, do an honest business, and sell a good product and by the time you need that $2250 something or other, you will be able to afford it no problem, along with insurance, which you will need because getting sued is the biggest way you get on these guy's radar.
That's my take on it.

[DukeInFlorida]

The sale of ANY bullets, cast, swaged, or otherwise, FOR PROFIT (why else would you sell them?) requires all the ATF paperwork. PERIOD!

Are there people selling cast lead bullets without the paperwork? yes, very likely. Those people are foolish. The few dollars isn't worth PRISON time.

It's the jacketed bullets that the ATF is MOST concerned about. Those are the "serious" bullets.

You darn well better have your ATF paperwork in place before SELLING any bullets.

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. You may be willing to go to prison by skipping paperwork. I am NOT.

[aaronraad]

Okay here are a couple of examples:

• I can import a bullet comparator from Sinclair without any paperework, but it all goes south when I add a modified 22H case for Hornady seating depth tool. Dare I say importinng dies has not been an issue either.
• US citizens can obiously buy/sell (2nd hand?) components without issue, projectiles included. Are quantities limited? How do you know the other citizen won't export them, do you sign an agreement with them?

If anything you've got admire the hyprocrisy of the system or really enjoy -> . Maybe if the US governement was as effective at regulating their banking/credit system, as they are with exports, then 2009 might have been just another year. I'll stop being critical now and go back to projectile design on the up-and-up...your DTIC reports are fantastic!

[preachinpilot]

Yep . Gotta pay it. i am in the process of getting my business all together. What can I do , fail? I will succeed. Have to pay the ITAR fee as ATF is giving 30 days to comply with the state dept or they rescind your 07. If you figure the cost as overhead it comes out to app. 220/mo for the fees and SOT tax. I am casting LBT bullets and swaging 40's (BT Sniper) for local shops and online sales. I am looking at getting a Ballisti Cast X to pump out 40 cast, hand cast LBT heavy's and Star sizer. Also note, I am not sselling but am building up an inventory that is properly aged 30 days so i have some cushion. I have three shops to outfit and I am thinking on the lines of 30,000 bullets boxed before sale.

[wyattjames]

may i ask the question of why you are appling for a 07 vs 06 for making bullets ?

[josleynrm]

Reload3006,
I was under the impression that as long as I did not do business with anyone outside the country, I would not need to register and bribe the Federal Government. The...person at the State Department informed me that that did not matter. Maybe he was misinformed. I will pursue this further because $2250 per year is too much.

[Reload3006]

I don't believe that the two are the same hence Richard Corbin states that because of ITAR he does not ship foreign orders of bullet jackets. Probably the best advice if your really interested in pursuing the bullet making business is a talk with an attorney who specializes in corporate law. I know from working at a major aerospace corporation that there are a lot of regulations concerning export and import and there are in your case 3 different departments of the federal government that you will have to deal with. The department of Justice, The department of State, and the Department of treasury. Also remember that not just product can be construed as an export. Information is also considered an export whether or not money has exchanged hands. This becomes especially important when arms and ammunition comes into the equation then ITAR is in effect and so it falls under the purview of the state department. So lets say that a potential customer from Asia calls you and you discuss your manufacturing process. Even though you didn't send him/her any product you exported information to him and since it is an ITAR applicable item you are now in trouble with the state department. Talk to an attorney

[Bullshop]

Misinformed or informed what to lie?
Just like the lead lie that swept the country and about WWs.
The scrap yard owner in Fairbanks told me that because lead is a hazmat the epa forced him to comply with a whole list of their ruleings for storeing lead. I told him that lead is not on the epa hazmat list and the rules were bogus and to contact Excide for truth in the matter.
He told me he knew the truth but that epa would cite him and fine him to the point that he couldnt fight it and would loose his business. Illegal approved Extortion by the gangsters!
It is law not because it is law but because they say it is law and is saintly justifiable because it is for the perceived greater good.
Just think of how wonderful a world we would live in if the stubborn bitter clingers would just allow the cumulitive affect of all the greater good planning to take place without opposition.
Reminds me of what Jesus said to a desciple when asked if he could first burry his father before he came to follow, "" let the dead burry the dead""

[dudits]

my thoughts on this matter, read my signature...

[PS Paul]

Yep. OP asked what happened to enterpreneurism and enterprise in the US? It's officially been regulated into non-existence. But never fear, the Obommunist is going to tax and regulate our way OUT of this recession!

[dakotashooter2]

I don't sell bullets....... I just lease them out.......................

[SquirrelHollow]

Are there people selling cast lead bullets without the paperwork? yes, very likely. Those people are foolish. The few dollars isn't worth PRISON time.

It isn't "likely" - it is known.

I have a list on my computer, of all the bullet casters in my area that are selling without a license. (There aren't many small-time swagers.)
Whenever I see a new screen name or contact show up in my local classifieds for some one that seems to be casting bullets as a for-profit venture (not just "hey, I can't shoot these any more, so here's 2,000"), I call them to ask about their equipment and whether they're licensed.

It isn't that I care whether or not they are facing potential trouble with various Federal agencies, but because people that go through the trouble to get licensed care about their reputation more. Licensed manufacturers use good alloys, good molds, good lubes, and don't try to pass a bad product off on you.

[Lizard333]

Why not just go into a partnership with a local gun store and work under their license? You would also get a larger customer base from the shop.

[RP]

Doing the right thing is getting harder and harder all the time. If they want to they can ruin your life no matter what the reasons. You can sell air and pad it with bullets lol . I got into swaging and was thinking of selling some to off set the cost of the dies but after looking I decided its not worth the trouble.

[Cmemiss]

I know everyone hates Obama, but give it a rest. All this **** was in place long before he was elected, and Bush/Chaney didn't do anything to aleviate the situation. On the other hand, I would sell lead scrap in the form of HG 68s with a bit of grease on them for a reasonable price. Now prove they are not throw-aways that didn't meet my standards for personal use. Unless you get into major numbers or have a case of feloniousy stupid mouth with someone from ATF who really cares.

[perotter]

While one could probability make a few and sell them for years under the radar. Or maybe the ATF comes for a visit quickly, but only says game over and that ends that. Or they visit and you happen to be the one they decide their going to prosecute to the fullest to make an example to others. Not worth it to me.

I'd, for example, get a job weekend at the nearest gas station if I felt the need to replace the money spent on swaging equipment. Pay might even be better per hour.

[Case Stuffer]

The biggest risk other than court/lawyer cost and possible jail time is that once convicted of a felony you lose the right( privilage?) to even own a frearm for the rest of your life. As I have posted before by he mid eighties it had gotten bad enough that I gave up my class 6 and shut down my sideline casting / reloading operations and just worked more hours on my regular job.

Recebtly my son asked Dad you could make some extra money selling boolits and reloads couldn't you? I replied been there done that and do not care to spend 50 to a 100 thousand dollars plus operational overhead and have uncle looking over my shoulder.

I have not checked first hand but from what I hear it is almost impossible to even get a FFL these days without a real brickand mortor business location. In years past it was not that difficult to get one operating from you house as long as it was a sperate room and open to inspection anytime they desired to do so.

Yes I have seen the ads , Get you home based FFL gurenteed or money refunded.

[CATTLEMAN]

ITAR etc is just a clever way to destroy the firearms industry.

Don't kid yourself it is just gun control under another name.

[doulos]

I don't see how ITAR has anything to do with selling projectiles to the American public. If you go on the website it seems pretty clear it is a license for exporting and importing from foreign countries. Am I missing something?
If an ATF agent told the original poster that this was required in a addition to the ATF 6 license I would politely have to ask him to direct me to the statute that requires it so I could read it.
I would certainly contact an attorney if you feel they are giving a private interpretation that isn't in writing. I wouldn't doubt this is a private opinion by a field agent. It is surely something Id check with a lawyer before starting a business.