Registration with department of state to sell a few projectiles?

[kweidner]

Ok I live in a rural area and have many people interested in what I do making my own projectiles. I have not sold any but had considered it given the demand. I put a call into our regional atf to ask some questions as I figured the price of the FFL is not so bad. Even if I made just a little money to help support my own shooting and buying other dies it would be all good. The answer was as follows. In order to sell projectiles not only do I need to hold the type 6 but I have to register with the Department of State and am subject not only to the $2250 a year registration but ITAR. How do these smaller companies do it? It's not like I am making 20mm artillery rounds. I am swaging small projectiles that are best used right now for punching paper. I haven't even checked on liability insurance yet. What ever happened to free enterprise? The agent did mention it is possible to get a waiver from the DOS. Has anyone else looked into this? What were your findings?

[kweidner]

Did a little math while I vented. In order to just break even that would be 17000 bullets made just to break even. That's at $15 per 100. Not to mention liability ins! Guess it's gonna be for just me and my cousin.

[Randy C]

If you get a waiver what would it cost I was wanting to do the same.

[newcastter]

Did a little math while I vented. In order to just break even that would be 17000 bullets made just to break even. That's at $15 per 100. Not to mention liability ins! Guess it's gonna be for just me and my cousin.

Obamanomics

[atom73]

Ingenuity and hard work doesnt pay anymore.

[472x1B/A]

Well for my $0.02 worth, your call to 'them people' should not have been made, but I know you were wanting the honest truth. I would have just asked around untill I had 7 or 8 or more answers. Then based your decision on doing what you had planned. I know, the only stupid question is a question not asked, but sometimes asking the right person is important too. You just might now be on there watch list. Good luck kweidner.

[Case Stuffer]

Many small operations were licened and insured OOB( Out of Business).

Back in late seventies thru early eighties I held a class 6 license, had a sideline ,reloading , casting business , sold ammo and bootlits then the trend started to sue anyone and everyone associated with any firearm issues(?) . If someone got shot then sue the shooter,the firarms manufacture,the seller,the ammon and manufacture. If someone suffered hearing damage due to not being wise enought to use hearing protection (even with a warning in bold red letter on the amo box) then sue for that.

Liability insurance went from very reasonable to out of site and along with state and county business license ,records keeping/ reporting for three goverment agencies (pre computer days) I shut down operations and just worked a few more hours on my regular job and made more money without all of the hassels.

Ever notice that most of the small mom and pop grecory stores , gas stations, hardware etc. have been replaced with the mega chains? Overall prices go up and customerservice and appreciation goes down along with quality.

[bullet maker 57]

I believe that the DOS registration is for exporting not domestic sale.

[SquirrelHollow]

I believe that the DOS registration is for exporting not domestic sale.

DOS/ITAR registration is mandatory for all small arms and ammunition manufacturers, unless you are able to obtain an exemption (by certifying that your products will not be exported -- a difficult process).

The way many small companies and garage casters "get around it", is that they ignore it. They operate illegally.
They stick their head in the sand, and hope it doesn't get cut off.

[kweidner]

Well. I wanna make sure everyhting is on the up and up. Besides I certainly have nothing to hide. I am a proud legal gun owning American. I enjoy my freedoms and ability to buy and own firearms. I certainly understand the phone call could have gotten me on the watch list. However, knowing the answer, unless I get a waiver or something from them comes on the contrary, I will just make for personal consumption like I have from day one. Just given the current shortage, their are many people interested in doing what we are capable of. Look at Walt Berger. He seems to be doing pretty good. Funny thing is after I get through all the red tape things will probably settle down and everyone won't be buying because the are hoarding currently and won't need any.

[fryboy]

it changes from when you want to make and use them yourself to selling them , much like wine you can legally make so many gallons a year for personal consumption but to sell it is illegal , you can legally grow your own tobacco but again selling it is another story altogether ( well unless your selling it to a tobacco dealer ) especially a finished product such as cigarettes/cigars , pretty sure the licensing laws were put into place to discourage it and many people have been discouraged by red tape

[kweidner]

Heck the market is there. Problem is you would have to be almost full automated to make decent money at it by the time you pay all fees and jump through red tape. Not like I wanna sell a billion, just support a local demand and support a hobby. If start up cost for equipment and waiting times weren't so long I might consider it. Would love to find a used machine that could rock out a couple thousand an hour. At that rate you might could make money at it. A benchrest friend knows a guy says he has fully automated machine that "spits out swaged bullets like your shelling peas". He owns and swages with Neimi. He's seen it in production. Sad thing is owner doesn't even use it anymore. What might be that machine?

[Lizard333]

I'm not saying to break the law in any way but.......

If you sold to people you know with the understanding that they didn't come from you... It's not like your opening up a shop and selling to complete strangers.

Btw, I'm not a big fan of the current governments greedy little fingers in all of our business. Just sayin.

[josleynrm]

I have an 06 License. I had to pay. I called a......person at the U.S. Department of State, Directorate of Defense Trade Controls and asking what ITAR had to do with me. He quoted the regulation or rule whatever blahblahblah. I again asked him since I will not be selling ammunition or components overseas, how am I connected to the International Traffic in Arms Regulations. He again quoted the rule. Reckon he thought I wasn't listening the first time. I do have tinnitus and hearing loss. Got paperwork to prove it.

He told me that next year this would be being transferred to the Commerce Department. Can't wait to see what happens with it then.

I emailed my Representative and asked him if he could direct me to anyone who could properly explain my connection with ITAR and of course received the form letter response of how he stands to defend our 2nd Amendment rights. That's nice, I thought. Think I may better call his office and see if I can get a better answer. I guess I just don't get it. Probably since I've been overheated and hit in the head pretty hard a time or two. Could it be that the gubment don't want me in bidness? Nah. Couldn't be that.

[SquirrelHollow]

Could it be that the gubment don't want me in bidness? Nah. Couldn't be that.

It isn't just the shooting industry that's effected. If you look at any type of commerce in the U.S., the restrictions, regulations, definitions, and fees favor big business. It's a larger political issue than just the shooting industry.

Lobbyists working for the big guns have legislated the little guys into submission.

[Salmon-boy]

Get a small business grant from the government in order to start up.. That'd be the true definition of irony.

[Thetraveler]

I have been considering getting a class 6 myself but have so far stayed away. I would only be making the components not ammo. Is there a system out there that is fully automated for making bullits?

[Reload3006]

yes Hornady Sierra Speer Barns Etal don't make their own machines for about 250 to 500 grand you can have one too.

[Thetraveler]

yes Hornady Sierra Speer Barns Etal don't make their own machines for about 250 to 500 grand you can have one too.

Is that all?

[aaronraad]

Hmm that's interesting?

So what does Richard (no names please) have then if he doesn't have an ITAR licence to sell jackets in the US?

Scroll down on his ONLINE STORE web-page and read his statement. I've also received the same comment from his brother Dave.

I definitely think it's about who you talk to and how you talk to them. Your issue isn't unique to the US. If you think you get a little paranoid when you call a government department and the first message you get is 'this call may be recorded for training purposes', I can guarantee the person you speak with will give you exactly what they have been trained to say if they want to keep their job! In person and not within direct earshot of others you might find you get a different answer. Over the phone they don't know who they are speaking to.

You'll never start a business if you let your government tell you what's on the up-and-up. You need to be on the up-and-up and believe that yourself, and weigh up the risks for you and your family. Your spouse is normally an excellent sounding board. From a citzen of a country that's been through significant firearms reform, to a citzen that's about to go through significant firearm reform consider this; one day our citzens went from owning semi-automatic firearms legally to being criminals if you weren't able to show specific cause. What's to stop your government from adding brass, lead or steel to the ITAR inventory, they all go into the manufacture of firearms and associated items? If you think its diffcult starting up in the US at the moment try it over here.