DIY bp gurus: will I need to corn my black powder? for use in cartrides?

[Texantothecore]

No pics handy as the corning machine is at my friends house. He was using it last ( he makes good powder also).
The roller corning set up works well if your pressed pucks / powder discs are similar in size ( thickness) to run thru the rollers. This is where we experimented with pressed powder thickness of smaller diameter / fatter Vs larger diameter puck and thinner pressed powder. The thinner pressed powder was definitely faster and easier to corn over a thicker piece running it thru rollers.

Our corning mill looks similar to what is pictured below but with a hopper and crank attached-

http://www.homebrew-supplies.ca/viar...18&item_id=369

We made the rollers from knurled aluminum and are adjustable for width / thickness.

Thanks for the link as it is very instructive. I would not have thought of three rollers but that looks like a good solution to the problem at hand. The first two rollers crush the puck and the third crushes it to the wanted size. Thanks for the info, it will be used in my shop.

[Texantothecore]

Cal50,

I was running the whole system in my head and the question of puck thickness did come up as it seems to me it might increase yield on the first pass if one used a thinner puck. Have you had any experience with this? As you have written, the separators for the pucks could be simply aluminum foil and a full lb done on each pressing as you do now but you might use 1/2 cup per puck in order to produce a thinner puck that broke more consistently.

Would this be something I need to check out?

Being a manufacturing guy, the question has also come up about a 6 ton press. Because of the short working distance of the ram (2 inches), the procedure would resemble the following:

Load two pucks
Using a press plug designed for this purpose (extra long) Press to 100 or so lbs. This could be a very low pressure perhaps 25 lbs as all we would be doing is decreasing the volume of loose powder to a level at which I could get four pucks into a 4 inch long die.

Load the second two pucks and a press plug for the final press. It would seem to me that if we are going to compress to 1600 psi in the final compression the initial press action should be of little importance in the formation of the final product. This would allow me to load press 1 and while it was working its magic, load press 2. Essentially produce 4 pounds in a very short time and since we are going to have about 4 people in the project it would allow all of them to produce a fair amount of powder in a relatively small time span. Twice the production of a 12 ton press without any decrease in quality.

Thanks,
TTTC

[Boz330]

Here is my setup but I'm not doing near the quantity that you guys are doing. This is a ceramic coffee grinder. The knurled mill set up is really nice looking and I bet a lot quicker than my setup.

Bob

[Texantothecore]

Bob,

What grinder is that? I am looking at a Corona grain mill that is extremely popular in South America and it will, in two or three passes, produce fine flour from grain. It is also sturdy enough to be cleaned with a hose between batches of different materials.

[Texantothecore]

I am hoping to use up about 4 lbs per month and doing it in one hour would be very nice. Actually that would be less time than it takes to drive to the gunshop and buy it for 25.00 per lb.


I spend a lot of my shooting time at the range with people who are fascinated by black powder and I always hand them the rifle to shoot to give them a real feel for the sport. After the trigger pull they, like me, stand up and cheer for God, Country and Texas.

But it is getting expensive and I would like to be able to continue to do this.

I originally started shooting ML as a direct result of Civil War re-enactors who had a set up at the St. Louis County Fair one year. They handed you a rifle with a small charge 5-6 grns in aluminum foil and you loaded it as a blank and fired it. I fell in love with BP right there. I want to "Pay It Forward"and do the same for others. I love doing that.

[cal50]

Cal50,

I was running the whole system in my head and the question of puck thickness did come up as it seems to me it might increase yield on the first pass if one used a thinner puck. Have you had any experience with this? As you have written, the separators for the pucks could be simply aluminum foil and a full lb done on each pressing as you do now but you might use 1/2 cup per puck in order to produce a thinner puck that broke more consistently.

Would this be something I need to check out?

Being a manufacturing guy, the question has also come up about a 6 ton press. Because of the short working distance of the ram (2 inches), the procedure would resemble the following:

Load two pucks
Using a press plug designed for this purpose (extra long) Press to 100 or so lbs. This could be a very low pressure perhaps 25 lbs as all we would be doing is decreasing the volume of loose powder to a level at which I could get four pucks into a 4 inch long die.

Load the second two pucks and a press plug for the final press. It would seem to me that if we are going to compress to 1600 psi in the final compression the initial press action should be of little importance in the formation of the final product. This would allow me to load press 1 and while it was working its magic, load press 2. Essentially produce 4 pounds in a very short time and since we are going to have about 4 people in the project it would allow all of them to produce a fair amount of powder in a relatively small time span. Twice the production of a 12 ton press without any decrease in quality.

Thanks,
TTTC

That's something to consider and your process can be tailored to your setup or demands. I like my pressed powder to come out of the die about 3/8" to 1/2" thick. The thickness can be adjusted by the amount of powder put in the press die and pressure / time compressed. Mine was run thru the rollers to corn but as I made a reference to the thickness of the pucks need to be a certain range to feed through the rollers without making a lot of dust or wasted grains. I am always looking for a better and simpler way and the roller works but mashing it with a wood bat and sifting does as well.

[cal50]

Here is my setup but I'm not doing near the quantity that you guys are doing. This is a ceramic coffee grinder. The knurled mill set up is really nice looking and I bet a lot quicker than my setup.

Bob

I hope you wear gloves and safety glasses when cranking.....
Even that small amount of powder will bark at you if ignited.

[Texantothecore]

I hope you wear gloves and safety glasses when cranking.....
Even that small amount of powder will bark at you if ignited.

I learned a long time ago that welding gloves work. Period.


And lately I have learned that goggles are not enough for pouring bullets, you need a full face mask. The lesson learned was very cheap but unforgettable. A tiny (probably 1/2 the size of a pinhead) piece of molten lead popped up and landed on my nose and hurt like the dickens but did not leave a permanent scar. I shut down and drove directly to Lowes and bought a full face safety mask for 13.00 and I haven't that problem again. I am noticeably more careful too and as a result there are no scars on the facemask from lead that has gone into the air.

[Texantothecore]

That's something to consider and your process can be tailored to your setup or demands. I like my pressed powder to come out of the die about 3/8" to 1/2" thick. The thickness can be adjusted by the amount of powder put in the press die and pressure / time compressed. Mine was run thru the rollers to corn but as I made a reference to the thickness of the pucks need to be a certain range to feed through the rollers without making a lot of dust or wasted grains. I am always looking for a better and simpler way and the roller works but mashing it with a wood bat and sifting does as well.

I will probably start with the old baseball bat technique and graduate to a more hi tech solution if needed. And I will probably experiment with such things as puck thickness, development of a standard puck size using a weighed charge and increasing yield on the first pass.

[Boz330]

Bob,

What grinder is that? I am looking at a Corona grain mill that is extremely popular in South America and it will, in two or three passes, produce fine flour from grain. It is also sturdy enough to be cleaned with a hose between batches of different materials.

I couldn't find a name on it. It is a ceramic grinder to avoid sparks and IIRC I got it from Amazon. You really don't need for it grind that fine. My problem is I get way more fines than I can use in a flinch lock. I found that 3F gives me the best groups and ES of any other granulation.

@ cal50 safety glasses are a permanent fixture on my face since I was 3 and leather gloves. I wish that I still had a connection to get the nomex flight gloves that I use to be able to get.


Bob

[cal50]

The corning process is the most hazardous IMHO. Pressing or breaking pressed powder is less risky than running thru any grinder or friction /abrasive contact points. Ball mill explosions are rare by comparison to corning phase fires.

Always try to corn powder when the relative humidity is high. Very dry conditions usually are better for generating static electricity. I ground my ball mill and corning roller when in use. I have tried to ignite atomized powder by static electricity with no success.
That does not mean it can't happen though.
Long sleeves, gloves, glasses a face shield and small volumes of powder = safe operation.

[Texantothecore]

The corning process is the most hazardous IMHO. Pressing or breaking pressed powder is less risky than running thru any grinder or friction /abrasive contact points. Ball mill explosions are rare by comparison to corning phase fires.

Always try to corn powder when the relative humidity is high. Very dry conditions usually are better for generating static electricity. I ground my ball mill and corning roller when in use. I have tried to ignite atomized powder by static electricity with no success.
That does not mean it can't happen though.
Long sleeves, gloves, glasses a face shield and small volumes of powder = safe operation.

I will be using an emptied windex spray bottle to increase the relative humidity in the area in which we are working. I haven't seen any static electricity in the area as Houston is very humid, but you never know.

Cal50, how do you ground your machinery?

[cal50]

Simple copper wire from the mill to a ground rod or a cold water / copper pipe. Perhaps overkill but simple to do. At a minimum discharge yourself by touching a grounded object similar to working on electronics.

[Boz330]

The real danger would be the fine dust from the grinding process with static electricity. There are lots of videos trying to set off granulated powder with static electricity with no joy. OTOH how many grain silos have blown up and that dust isn't near as flammable as BP.

Bob

[Texantothecore]

The real danger would be the fine dust from the grinding process with static electricity. There are lots of videos trying to set off granulated powder with static electricity with no joy. OTOH how many grain silos have blown up and that dust isn't near as flammable as BP.

Bob

Many, many years ago in what increasingly seems to have been a different galaxy (LOL) I worked in the wood industry. We had automated routers going 24/7 and dust was a real hazard although we never had an explosion. It's the microdust that will get you. The lack of explosions in these envrionments these days is a good indication of how well the companies use their dust control systems.

I wish we had a dust control expert on the board to lend us some insight. I do know that the operations for our group that might generate dust will be done outside in the wind. It is going to be a chapter (ha!) in my operations manual for the group and will play a big role in the initial teaching phase for the guys. Fortunately most of the guys in the group are tech heads (mostly engineers) from the oil industry and they are really adept at picking up technical data and have, like me, worked in hazardous environments. So they are familiar with the problem.

And they have the same degree of paranoia that I have concerning safety hazards. LOL. Sometimes paranoia pays off ..........

[Texantothecore]

I think we are going to go for the 6 ton press to start. It should be quite fast and once we get the preliminary press work done, that is to reduce the volume of the powder, it should go just as fast as the 12 ton press. As we add people we can add the smaller presses for very little money.

We can also use the savings on the press to look at a better grinder like the Corona as I think and have read that the initial grind is pretty key and it will speed things along. We will also probably get a Chrony (you shoot it, you buy it!) to do some really good testing of our results. Nothing spectacular, although the tech heads I hang out with will probably want the Biggest-Baddest-Super-Duper-Ultra-Turbo-Extreme-Wireless Chrony in the world, but I can handle them. Data is data.

[Texantothecore]

For the 1700 members and guests who are following this thread, some observations:

1. Black powder is wonderfully useful, more so in many ways than modern powder. Small charges work well as well as full bore Zombie loads if you take the time to read the many threads on how to do this safely. This allows one to use only the amount of powder and projectile that is needed to get the job done, a great way to preserve powder and lead in this time of, quite frankly, stupid prices and shortages.

2. Given a small set of ag chemicals from Home Depot, you can make:

a. A lower speed powder that is suitable for short range plinking, rabbits and squirrels, birds etc. Call it the Trail Boss of black powder. It is black powder that is screened and dried but not corned. In a .45-70 it will allow you to get a rabbit without the problem of vaporizing it with a full full bore load. It is also quickly made on the kitchen table........ if you are single or want to be. LOL

b. A much more powerful corned powder that will, with sufficient caliber, splash most anything on the North American continent. Which is what we are discussing here.

Wonderful stuff.

[Texantothecore]

Bob and Cal50 and all:

I recently saw a reference to a French grind method that is designed to be safe but is used to disable clumping during the initial grinding process for Potassium Nitrate and Sulfur. The French pour 1/3 of the charcoal into the Potassium Nitrate drum and the remainder in the Sulfur drum. Apparently the amount of charcoal in the Potassium Nitrate drum is below the level at which it becomes explosive and the same appears to be true for the sulfur mix of sulfur and charcoal.

With a two drum tumbler from Harbor Freight you could use one grind sequence rather than three grind sequences for your initial reduction of the black powder components which would really speed things up and as a bonus it would decrease the handling of the components and thereby render the process a bit safer. The French claim that it is very safe and I haven't heard anything to the contrary.

Any comments on this technique would be welcome.

[Texantothecore]

I think that most of the silo and factory blowups you read about are due to sparking from 220 volt, 3 phase motors, not static electricity. Most grain elevators or silos have motors and blowers in the bottom that are used to circulate air through the grain to keep it from deteriorating and catching fire like the proverbial oily rag.

My father used to design these motors and the modern versions are very high tech. Surprisingly so.

[Texantothecore]

I couldn't find a name on it. It is a ceramic grinder to avoid sparks and IIRC I got it from Amazon. You really don't need for it grind that fine. My problem is I get way more fines than I can use in a flinch lock. I found that 3F gives me the best groups and ES of any other granulation.

@ cal50 safety glasses are a permanent fixture on my face since I was 3 and leather gloves. I wish that I still had a connection to get the nomex flight gloves that I use to be able to get.


Bob

Goex uses, I have read, 12 to 24 screens whereas Swiss uses 16 to 30 for ffg and that may account for the better performance.