Loading .38-40 with holy black question.

[moptop]

I would like to try loading .38-40's with BP to shoot out of my Win '92. What is the correct way to do it? Do I have to have a drop tube of some kind or can I just measure it in with my adjustable brass measure? How much do you compress the load? Also which grain size should I use, FFG or FFFg? I already have FFFg which I use in my Rem '58, .45 cal and .50 cal rifles. I would also like to know if I can use Trip 7 instead of holy black, only becasue of the ease of cleaning.

Thanks much! Dominick

[Don McDowell]

37 grs of goex 3f with a .030 fiber wad on top. Use your flaring die to compress the powder enough to seat the bullet. Just be sure and use a good blackpowder lube. Why mess with the fake stuff? If you don't want to shoot real black then shoot smokeless and never mind the fake smoke.

[Wishbone]

I've been shooting 38-40's in Cowboy action with BP for about 15yrs. I usually load about 28-30 grains with a Cream-O-Wheat filler to about an 1/8th in from top of shell. Nice compressed load and NEVER failed to go boom with much smoke. Oh, I've only used LP primers. Never had to use Magnum primers.. I have used both 2f and 3f..I may be slow, but I can't tell that much difference. I use the same load in my original '73 Winchester.. Triple 7 will give you higher pressures. I just reduce the load a bit. I use that for deer hunting. Like you said, much easier to clean. Gil

[bigted]

may need some edubication here...tripple 7 easier to clean? ive never cleaned anything that cleans up as easy as real black powder...can you elasticize my brain with how this would be any easyier? not pickin a scab but rather wanting to be educated as far as the simplistic approach's with the aftermarket stuff.

my experience differs from this statement so im curious as to maybe how ive done it wrong with smokless or trip-7 or pyrodex.

i ruined a cap-n-ball .44 with not cleaning it when i shot the pyro-crud when i took the claim to heart that i didnt need to clean it rite away as i nearly ruined a thomson center kit i built when shooting the tripple 7 and not looking at it a few days later to check the rust thru the remington gun oil i ALWAYS spray down my guns with after cleaning. i salvaged the rifle but nearly lost it to a rusty heap ... i have never had this problem with the real GOEX blackpowder in any form....ive used that powder in cartridge, 1f, 2f, and 3f form as well as some 4f in a brief surge with a 32 cal cap-n-ball revolver....always just some warm soapy water and a good dry followed with the rem spray oil to preserve till next time i wanna shoot when i wipe it down and go to shooting like no tomarrow. i have recently...[last 3 or so years]...been introduced [by friends here] to a product called BALLISTOL and when i mix it with water ...it does a wonderfull job of cleaning my cartridge guns without the need of warm soapy water even...just a couple swabs with the mix ...dry...and cleaner then clean.

as for the cartridges ... i just dunk em in water till i get home where i brass brush em with my lyman electric screwdriver attachment and hold em over a flame to dry and walla they are ready to reload again...if i want a nice shiney case i vibrate em for a few hours to get a gleaming new looking case.

[Boz330]

as for the cartridges ... i just dunk em in water till i get home where i brass brush em with my lyman electric screwdriver attachment and hold em over a flame to dry and walla they are ready to reload again...if i want a nice shiney case i vibrate em for a few hours to get a gleaming new looking case.

Ted, you can scratch your cases with that process. Better to use a nylon brush if you are going to spin the brush. Or just brush with an in and out stroke with the brass brush.

Bob

[bob208]

there are no short cuts in loading bpc. so if you want the best loads use a drop tube. i have seen more guns runined by people using subs instead of real bp. you do have to wash the brass after firing.

[moptop]

Well I'm a little unclear as to the reason a drop tube is used. Is it to help even out the density of the load? How long of a tube is needed?

I use Trip 7 in my '58 Rem and I've never had a problem with any rust. Now I will say though that I always do a good job of clean it up right after shooting because I never know how long it will be till the next time I can shoot again. The T7 cleans up easily with just water but I have used some BP cleaner but it doesn't seem to make much difference. That is the only reason I'm considering trying it in my 38-40 loads.

Thanks all for the replies.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Also by using the real BP you have a solid powder base below the boolit so you will never have a boolit get pushed into the neck deep by recoil. So now you do not need a rock solid crimp. Just enough so the boolit will not fall out. I personally like 3F in these old calibers. They get the benefit of a bit more velocity and 3F burns cleaner.
I have used drop tubes and an old electric razor as a vibrator to settle powder... they both work equally as well.
Just be sure to use a real BP lube. I have used Beeswax and olive oil for years and never had a problem. Mike in Peru

[John Allen]

The drop tube settles the powder in the cartridge evenly and allows for a denser pack. On a side note take a small tupperware drink container with you to the range with some dish soap and water in it. When you are shooting just throw the cases in there and they will start breaking down the powder. Then when you get home all you have to do is give it some aggressive shaking and wash until the soap disappears.

[Don McDowell]

Well I'm a little unclear as to the reason a drop tube is used. Is it to help even out the density of the load? How long of a tube is needed?

.

Drop tube will let the powder settle a bit deeper into the case. You can also achieve about the same results by simply holding your scale pan or powder dipper a few inches above the powder funnel on the case and pouring slowly. Most likely you're still going to need to compress the powder when using full charges of blackpowder even using a drop tube.

[cajun shooter]

The 38-40 cartridge is nothing but the 44WCF necked down and I shoot this round with 100% BP all the time. I'm speaking about the 44WCF which I shoot from two USFA revolvers and a 1873 lever rifle for SASS matches.
I don't understand your wanting to shoot a wanna be powder instead of your BP which you already have on hand. I fired my 44-40 in my 92 for over three years before buying my 73. I never had to worry about cleaning until at least 4 days after a match. The 92 cleaned up like new with the spraying down of some Moosemilk and then adding some Eezox oil for protection. The 38-40 case seals just like the 44-40 and has little to no blowback like the straight sided cases do. You only have to fill your case about 3/4 or more leaving just about a 1/8 of a inch or so. Then seat the bullet, no card wad or compression die needed.
I shoot 20-1 alloy for a 10 BHN and my 73 goes for over 6 months before needing the side plate removed.
All fake BP powders cause a much faster rusting of your gun than the real thing. They only provide smoke and don't have the same loud boom, sparks and flames from the barrel. Why shoot them? I can clean my guns fired with my KIK 2F just as fast or faster than someone who is using a sub or smokeless.
Read Mike Venturino's book on Shooting Guns of The Old West and it will answer your questions.
Moosemilk sprayed all over the rifle with a few patches followed by a bore snake and a oil patch and you are done. Take Care and have fun

[moptop]

See, this is the kind of info I was looking for....

I fired my 44-40 in my 92 for over three years before buying my 73. I never had to worry about cleaning until at least 4 days after a match. The 92 cleaned up like new with the spraying down of some Moosemilk and then adding some Eezox oil for protection. The 38-40 case seals just like the 44-40 and has little to no blowback like the straight sided cases do. You only have to fill your case about 3/4 or more leaving just about a 1/8 of a inch or so. Then seat the bullet, no card wad or compression die needed.
I shoot 20-1 alloy for a 10 BHN and my 73 goes for over 6 months before needing the side plate removed.

Also by using the real BP you have a solid powder base below the boolit so you will never have a boolit get pushed into the neck deep by recoil. So now you do not need a rock solid crimp. Just enough so the boolit will not fall out. I personally like 3F in these old calibers. They get the benefit of a bit more velocity and 3F burns cleaner.

The drop tube settles the powder in the cartridge evenly and allows for a denser pack.

Thanks to everyone for your input. I would have liked to quoted something from everyone's posts because it was ALL very informative, but needless to say, that's not practical!

I have read several places where the one main reason why Winchester chose not to chamber a rifle in .45 colt was because of ejection problems only after a few rounds due to it's straight wall design. Now I feel there's no reason to load using Trip7.

I'm lookin forward to making smoke and fire with my '92.

[cajun shooter]

Moptop, Please allow me to set you straight on what you have either heard or read about the 45 Colt(NOT LONG COLT) If you do some research on this and other forums about the cartridge you will find the truth about why there never was a 45 Colt rifle.
The original design of the cases that came out in 1873 and made for the 45 Colt revolver was made without a rim. It was truly almost a rimless case. All rifles need something to grab to extract the cartridge from the chamber and with no rim the 45 Colt was used in revolvers only. It was many years after the old west was over before we had the 45 Colt case that we see today.

[rbertalotto]

The original design of the cases that came out in 1873 and made for the 45 Colt revolver was made without a rim. It was truly almost a rimless case. All rifles need something to grab to extract the cartridge from the chamber and with no rim the 45 Colt was used in revolvers only.

I've seen this in books and many times here on the internet and I don't doubt its accuracy. But having rebarreled and rechambered a 45LC Colt Lightning rifle clone recently to 38-40 it is clear with the tip up loading that this rifle utilizes, the size and shape of the cartridge is a deal breaker. http://rvbprecision.com/shooting/col...-to-38wcf.html

I'm quite sure I could get the simple hook extractor to grab and eject a rimless case on this type of rifle.

In the case of the 1860, 1866 and 1873 Winchester, with their direct feeding into the chamber, size and shape of the case is not an issue. But again, these rifles use a simple hook extractor and it might have been possible to make it reliably extract.

I wonder if corporate politics weren't involved in some way. With Winchester not wanting to chamber the 45 "Colt"............??

[moptop]

Cajun shooter & Rbertalotto, thanks for the bit of history & clarification. I did not know about the "rimless" .45 colt and now you've got my curiosity up. See, you just gave me a whole bunch of homework to do this evening! Really, I'm glad you passed that along. I enjoy doing research about things I'm interested in and I definitely want to know the correct info on it.

Thanks again!

[John Boy]

holy black - I enjoy doing research about things

Moptop, during your research, see if you can find us some of that 'holy' black powder. Sure would be nice to reload with powder that has a religious origin. Definitely would help us put more rounds in the center!

[Hogpost]

Many dittos on the "BP substitutes." Their primary value is that they are more readily available since, like
smokeless powders (a passing fad) they are not classified as "explosive," and thus have less HazMat
shipping and storage regulation. But they use sugars as "fuel" instead of charcoal, and can leave a hard
glassy "burnt sugar" fouling that is harder to remove, and more corrosive than real BP. Anyone who's had
a hard glassy fouling ring just forward of the chamber will strongly agree.

I clean my BP with Ballistol/water 50-50; then spray down with straight Ballistol. Almost instant clean,
and never a hint of rust. And with real BP, 3FG will leave less fouling than 2FG, while providing typically
100 fps more velocity. And, Swiss 3FG is the cleanest and most powerful BP there is; Scheutzen is a bit
lesser in both areas, but still excellent powder & seriously cheaper.

I'm also in an area where real BP is almost impossible to get, so I just buy it mailorder from Maine Powder House.
It's an additional $25 HazMat per shipment up to 25 lbs (25lbs or more is free), but I can usually find a friend or
two to share a shipment. But even with a 5Lb shipment, the extra $5/pound still makes the Schuetzen BP cheaper per pound
than most any smokeless. And I get the "real thing."

Welcome to the BP world, moptop. Glad to have you!

[TXGunNut]

Welcome to the world of BP, if you find a use for that 777 junk I'll send you a couple of lbs. I think the "messy cleanup" myth was started dring a BP shortage to scare off the newbies and save powder for the folks who knew the truth. With KIK FFFg and Ballistol/moosemilk I'm done cleaning in less time than it takes to get started cleaning out copper and nitrocellulose with stinky petro solvents.

[brudford]

Moptop , I have been reloading the 38-40WCF for about 5 years now . I reload for my Uberti 1885 Low Wall . Here is what my research and practical experience has taught me about the 38-40 . A rifle cartridge design by Winchester for use in their lever action rifles . A 44-40 WCF necked down to take a 40 caliber lead bullet . Several years after it's introduction Colt began chambering the 38-40 for the Peace Makers . Guys love them for CA , although I prefer the old .45 L.C. . I cast a 20:1 lead bullet from Lyman's #401043 mould . Use Starline brass . I have tried lube cookies , cork and fiber wads and never any filler . If the 38-40 has to much recoil for the pistol shooter then go to an actual pistol caliber . Tried 3f Goex powder , does burn cleaner but more recoil and more erratic pressues and my accuracy suffers . My best accuracy comes from Goex 2f powder filled right to the base of the bullet with only the bullet compressing the powder . The wads did nothing for me , just added extra time in the reloading process . I use a Lee sizing die and a Lee powder through expander die . I use no drop tube . I measure my BP in an old brass dipper and have a aluminum funnel that sits on top of the Lee powder through expander die and hold the dipper about 4 inches above the funnel and charge the case . I figure that gives a little drop for the powder . Make my lube from Beeswax , olive oil, canning wax, lanolin and a crayon for color . I pan lube . CCI large pistol primer . Also use a Hornaday seating die as the Lee seating die would not seat the bullet straight . The Hornaday seating die has a sleeve that will seat the bullet perfectly straight . As a side thought , I went to Goex's load data sight several years ago and they recommend using 1f for the 38-40WCF in a rifle load . I called their tech support and they stated , yes 1f . I really don't know about that ? All my experience has been for 38-40 rifle loads only . I have never loaded for a pistol in 38-40 WCF . I 'am getting sub 1" groups at 100yards from my 1885 Low Wall with this load . I check my case lengths after every use with dial calibers and never have had to trim my cases . Bought 100 Starlines cases about 3 years ago and have about 5-7 reloads on each case and have never split a case . At the range I fill a water bottle with 50% Hydrogen Peroxide and 50% Isopropol Alcohol . After shooting place spent cartridge in bottle rinse when I get home with clean water . After drying, deprime on a Lee Universal depriming die and place in Lyman Tumbler with walnut media . I once tried reloading the 38-40WCF using Hodgon's Pyrodex P the FFFG equivalent . Performance was worse than the Goex 3f . Pyrodex is very dirty compared to real BP . I guess if the Democrats ever ban real BP I could live with it . Good luck, the 38-40 is one of my favorite old BP cartridges to load and shoot .