.38 special blow up and questions regarding proper loadings.

[ell198679]

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm Light loads have been known to cause failures.

[Larry Gibson]

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm Light loads have been known to cause failures.

First thing to note in that article/thread is; "Here are several opinions.". The blow up of the Contender is a well known S.E.E. It has happened with other 45-70 Contenders using light loads of 2400 in the larger 45-70 case with magnum primers and 300 gr jacketed bullets. The commonality to the is; "Pointing the barrel straight down while releasing the hammer I turned to answer. I then raised my Contender and just knew that this time I was going to bust the pigeon. Pulling the trigger my Contender exploded." What happens is the small amount of powder is totally in front of case behind the bullet. The force of the primer pushes the bullet into the throat where it sticks and essentially becomes a bore obstruction before the 2400 begins to burn efficiently enough to move the bullet. The psi rises dramatically well above the structural strength of the brass cases or the firearm before the bullet can get moving again and something gives.....in this case the Contenders. A classic S.E.E.!

The "comment recently downloaded from CAS-City pages" is simply a regurgitation of the "detonation by wave" theory which has not been proven.

The "opinion" of Norman Johnson is quite incorrect;

"SEE is an unexplained pressure excursion which has often blown up guns. It is associated with markedly reduced loads of very slow powders.

(Note; this part of Johnson's opinion is correct.)Contrary to the ubiquitous old wives tale, detonation is NOT a consideration with fast powders such as Bullseye, no matter how light the charge is or how spacious the case.

The phenomena of Secondary Explosion Effect (SEE) is known to occur only with the slow powders at very low loading densities. Precious little is known about the mechanics of the phenomenon and it is not even known if the expression, Secondary Explosion Effect, is accurate. SEE, despite best efforts of the leading powder companies, cannot be reproduced in the lab, at least in the literature that I have been able to find. "

S.E.E. has, in fact, been reproduced "in the lab" and is now well documented. I have posted the Handloader several times that documents S.E.E. as produced in a lab. S.E.E. is also well documented with other "fast burning powders" on the slow end. Such powders as 296, H110, 4227, and 2400 plus others are in this category.

Mr. Sharps had a nagging thought of using a Dacron wad to hold the powder back and had he done that he may have run the risk of ringing the barrel but it would have prevented the S.E.E. A Dacron filler would have been the appropriate thing to use with the 2400 but he should have used the 3031 powder he first mentioned. In his conversation with JD Jones it was still thought to be a "detonation" which it wasn't.

The possibility of S.E.E. with the reduced loads used in reloading cast bullets is real. When one goes outside the norm of reliable, well tested data from manuals one always runs the risk. I do use powders and loads that are many times outside loading manual data. I'm not telling anyone not to. However, if one is going to do that one should not do it lightly and without some knowledge. Many of us have learned the hard way, though not as "hard" as Mr. Sharp or the OP of this thread, what works and what can lead to an increased possibility or even probability of an S.E.E.

Let us also keep in mind that with the 38 SPL using a fast burning powder with a low load density the possibility of a double or triple charge is also possible, especially with some progressive loaders or with inattentive loading practices. A short light jacketed bullet with no powder or a squib load that sticks in the throat of a revolver is a common occurrence. To follow that "shot" with another containing a normal load is not an S.E.E. but simply an operator error of some magnitude. That type of incident seems to be more prevalent that an S.E.E.

Larry Gibson

[Groo]

Groo here
Thanks for the post, I have been saying this [ in a different way] for some time now.
The primer develops pressure in the case , the powder needs this pressure to maintain a good burn , if the bullet moves before enough pressure is generated, the
pressure drops , slowing the powder burn and reduces the push on the bullet,which can stick in the barrel,or at the forcing cone.
The evidence will be found as yellow or unburned powder .
If the bullet leaves the barrel or is stuck in the barrel, the gas is vented ,at the muzzle or the bc gap.
But if the bullet stops across the bc gap ,it can plug the cylinder , then as the pressure rises because the bullet is not moving normally and making the space larger
behind it-the pressure can exceed the limits of the cylinder [ most damage is at the cylinder] only a small amount of powder would be required.
Our loading data is designed for a moving bullet not a plug.
It would be in fact a hang-fire,

[ell198679]

Either that or attach a flag to your hat so we won't get at the bench beside you

Been reloading ammo now since this mishap almost two years. Not one issue, with blow ups thank god. However, I am always checking the bore of my guns for obstructions if the discharge didn't sound right. It is easy to reload, but also easy to mess up. This blow up was caused simply by a light load of less then 1.2 or 2 grains IE bore obstruction and firing another round. I dismantled these rounds, I didn't know what I was doing. I was so scared of an over charge that I ended up undercharging. It is very important to be very very careful. Anyways, any suspect ammo is run though my 12 gauge with an adapter if I am too lazy to dismantle.

[tek4260]

Why not simply stay away from all these loads that use a miniscule amount of powder? Figure out your desired velocity range and look for a powder that gives you that and is near 100% load density. In other words, a slower powder. Lot's of fine firearms have been destroyed by some idiot who insisted on using a few granules of fast powder. Of course he liked to brag about how smart he was and how much money he was saving.....

[flyingmonkey35]

I feel for you.

[BPCR Bill]

It's likely an overcharge of powder, something that is very easy to do with pistol cartridges. If for some reason you were distracted while charging the cases, put an extra charge in a case without realizing it, and then went on your happy way, that would do it certainly. It's happened to the best of us. Lesson learned and forge on.

[mozeppa]

I use a Dillon for loading handgun ammo. I pay attention to what I am doing and avoid any changes to rhythm or routine. When in doubt I throw rounds out. I just refuse to take chances.

ditto that.

i'm just about finished taking down 65,000 rounds of .40s&w &.45acp
because I didn't load them. i won't take a chance on a double load....(12,000 to go!)

i have 2 dillon 650's
neither has a priming station.

each caliber has 2 heads....1 for decap , size and bell.

the other head is set up permanently...#1 station has nothing in it.
a hornady powder measure in station #2.
powder check in station #3
reddings competition seater die in station #4
ad dillons taper crimp die in #5

also i use a small battery operated hand held pleasure-ing device (vibrator) taped to the powder hopper. helps getting a consistent throw each time.

[ole 5 hole group]

Been reloading ammo now since this mishap almost two years. Not one issue, with blow ups thank god. However, I am always checking the bore of my guns for obstructions if the discharge didn't sound right. It is easy to reload, but also easy to mess up. This blow up was caused simply by a light load of less then 1.2 or 2 grains IE bore obstruction and firing another round. I dismantled these rounds, I didn't know what I was doing. I was so scared of an over charge that I ended up undercharging. It is very important to be very very careful. Anyways, any suspect ammo is run though my 12 gauge with an adapter if I am too lazy to dismantle.

Sounds like your learning as you go - let's hope you have many more enjoyable reloading decades ahead.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

xs11jack, you mentioned the case filled with black crusty powder that just pushed the boolit partially into the forcing cone. I've seen a powder charge fill a case when it shouldn't only to find the case packed with tumbling media. I wonder if this has caused barrel obstructions and blown guns.

I've intentionally double loaded a couple cases with various fast burning powders in .45 Colt cases, duct taped the gun to the other side of a tree and pulled the trigger with a string and the Italian single action didn't blow until several tries.

I wonder if cases jammed with polishing compound might be responsible for more problems then we have previously considered.

[Gastero]

With a case like the .38 SPL , after loading the powder I always look inside with a flashlight. Sounds like it was a double or triple charge.

[w5pv]

Aftr one squib that I caught in time 50 years ago,I inspect each round for a charge when I take it out of the press(single stage)and then another time with a flash light before loading.Squibs scare me more than a double charge does.This is the way my feeble mind works.

[Dave C.]

I would bet money on a double charge. And I don't gamble.

[ell198679]

In the past two weeks of reloading, I have caught junk stuck in my brass in two instances. Obviously, this seems to be more of a problem then one might think. What I thought was a double charge was actually a brass case with some gunk in it. I inspect them before charging, but that one slipped by, and my dad lost my good flashlight Another one, had what looked like a piece of paper that was on top of the powder. Indicating, it must of come of my shirt or something and landed in it..

[DukeInFlorida]

As an experienced NRA Reloading Instructor, a few things come to mind:
1) The fact that this is the second thread with this same issues suggests to me that you are woefully inexperienced in reloading. I would STOP reloading, and go back, and re-read at least two books on the subject. Seek out a formal reloading class if one is available to you in your area. You are extremely lucky to not get seriously injured, and even luckier to have the manufacturer replace your gun, considering your circumstances.
2) There are several LAZY bad habits that will get you into load trouble.......
a) Please depend on ONLY published load data, scientifically developed by the powder manufacturer or bullet manufacturer. DO NOT depend on someone's post in any forum, however well intended the posted information might have been presented. It only takes a tap of the finger to make 3.2 grains of something become 4.3 grains of something else, and BOOM goes your gun. Use reliable information from a reliable source. If in doubt, call the manufacturer. They will give you good load data. I like to refer to 2 or more load data books when researching a new load. Sometimes, there are differences for the same powder, same bullet. Use the more prudent data. And, always make sure your load data books are up to date. Do NOT use old load data books.
b) Do NOT go directly from a powder dispenser to a bullet seater! Go from a powder dispenser to a reloading tray, and allow the filled brass to sit in nice neat rows until you are ready to seat bullets. The human eye can detect about .002" of variation in most surfaces. Look carefully up and down all the rows and columns, and make sure all have powder, and all have the same amount of powder.
c) Check the weight (using a proper reloading scale) of the first ten loads you dispense before placing them in the loading block (per above). You should be able to hit +/- .1 grain on the weight. If you can't hit that tight variation, then spend some time working at it until you can control your powder dispensing to +/- .1 grain! When I do my reloading classes, the MOST TIME is spent on getting the powder dispensing perfect. It's the biggest part of keeping you and your gun safe.
d) After dispensing the first ten powder drops, be sure to check every 5th one in the scale. If you start finding some that are off by more than +/-.1 grain, something is out of control. Stop, evaluate, and fix the problem. Dump all of the unknown ones back to the previous known good one. After a few cycles of every 5th one, you can move to every 10th one, and then to every 20th one, etc. Always check the final one. Stop, evaluate and fix the problem if you see more variation that +/- .1 grain any where along the way.
3) Your comment about having to go back and bell the case mouths of the brass also tells me that you don't have a solid foundation in the process. Re-read the reloading books for how to properly set the bell mouthing of the pistol cases.
4) Equally important is the CRIMPING of the pistol rounds, after bullet seating. Read up on all of this stuff. You have a lot to lose if you continue making basic mistakes.
5) Inspecting brass is a process that happens every time you touch each piece. Nothing should go into your resizing die until it's properly cleaned/polished. If you aren't cleaning/polishing your brass before reloading, you are risking several of the mistakes you refer to with regard to junk in the cases. You also risk permanently RUINING your die set due to scratches from sand/dirt. Once a set is ruined, it's not fixable.
6) Keep your reloading area neat, tidy, and clean of debris. Reloading is almost rocket science. A serious mess while reloading will mess up your day at the range.

My reloading class is a full 9 hour day. In that time, I cover pistol and rifle reloading. Most students wonder why it would take that long to do a class. At the end of the day, they are always amazed at how much is involved. And, it's ALL important!

Reloading dangerously isn't a way to save money. Reloading dangerously will cost you a lot more than any factory ammunition. If you don't have the aptitude to reload properly, then please BUY factory ammo. If you don't have the patience or the focus and concentration to reload, then buy factory ammunition.

We do NOT want your next thread to be pictures of missing and bloody fingers, and destroyed guns.

Anyone who's near enough to the Daytona area, and wants to come and take my class, please let me know. This is NOT an advertisement for my classes. Merely the reflections of a VERY experienced reloader, who has dealt with a large number of inexperienced reloaders. And, who knows the mistakes they can make.

Be safe

[alamogunr]

Thanks for that post, Duke. While most of what you posted is part of my routine, there are a couple of things that your emphasized that I find I'm not real consistent on. I've printed it and will keep it handy.

[Char-Gar]

Folks think they can buy some reloading equipment check in on a few internet sights and U-Tube videos and they are now reloaders. Turning loose hot gases contained in a small brass jug close to your face is an inherently dangerous activity, and one that can get you killed or maimed. To many folks take it far to lightly. I liken it to learning to sky dive on the internet. Now a very wise idea at all.

I have been a member of this site and several others since the internet was born and all to often it is the blind leading the blind. Folks seem to be offended when experienced reloaders tell them to read a book or two and then come back with questions. I do that often, not because I don't want to answer questions, but because a reliable published source will contain reliable and safe information. I have never given any unsafe or ill founded reloading counsel, but often it gets lost if the flood of other posts, some of which are rock solid, and some of which are pure nonsense, based on nothing but hearsay, guess work and conjecture.

This is a long way around to say Amen to Duke in Florida's posts above.

[ell198679]

Most of those steps I follow. My rounds fire of consistently for the most part. The only step I do not do with pistol rounds is crimping. Yes I did forget to bell the mouths of pistol brass before. I always inspect all my rounds and charges before seating. Yes I am inexperienced, and would still benefit with a good read through an entire reloading book. The only problem I see with books, is that sometimes their reloading data, charges etc. is incomplete. You make a good point about the powder dispensing. Sometimes, I have noticed my Lee perfect powder dispenser throwing powder on the upstroke. It is consistent though +or- .1 grains. Granted it was probably never enough powder to blow up anything maybe a few flakes, but something to watch out for.

[Mohillbilly]

I bulged a barrel in a New model Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt . I use a progressive 550b . I was making loads for a league night , and was making a set up short cut . i made a dummy with out powder to the right seating depth , I neglected to use a spent primer . That setup seating round got mixed with the loaded rounds . At the range my wife a new shooter called to me that one of the rounds weren't right . I did a quick check , an seeing nothing , reloaded and fired a round . I heard the shot strike but missed the target , the next 2 - 3 rounds missed as well I ended up adjusting the sight and got it back on target . At home cleaning the barrel I found a bulge behind the front sight , 3 weeks and a hundred twenty bucks later all was well again . I no longer make dummy loads with live primers. I will not use a powder combination that does not have at least 51% powder density . If I make a mistake and produce a double charge it runs over and generally makes a mess giving me time to reflect on the gun , eyes , fingers , or bystanders I may have destroyed .

[Char-Gar]

Most of those steps I follow. My rounds fire of consistently for the most part. The only step I do not do with pistol rounds is crimping. Yes I did forget to bell the mouths of pistol brass before. I always inspect all my rounds and charges before seating. Yes I am inexperienced, and would still benefit with a good read through an entire reloading book. The only problem I see with books, is that sometimes their reloading data, charges etc. is incomplete. You make a good point about the powder dispensing. Sometimes, I have noticed my Lee perfect powder dispenser throwing powder on the upstroke. It is consistent though +or- .1 grains. Granted it was probably never enough powder to blow up anything maybe a few flakes, but something to watch out for.

I don't think loading books are incomplete. I think many reloaders expect books to include loads for every specific bullet, which of course they do not. However a 155 grain +- cast bullet, or whatever weight you want, will take the same starting loads regardless of make or design. Top end loads should always be worked up in the individual firearms due to all the variations in the firearm, case, primer, powder and bullet.