Loading homemade slugs

[dverna]

Nice mount Capt.!!!! They need to be rock solid as 12 ga recoil will take its toll.

Regrettably, I deleted all my pictures of my set up. I had a custom comb to get my head up high enough to use the EoTech. I REALLY like the sight. Weight and balance was no problem at all as I shoot a heavy gun anyway - I am a recoil sissy so weight is my friend.

I admire the work you are doing and will follow your progress.

I am just itching to get into slug casting for self defense practice so I need something simple and fast but I appreciate those like you who try to push the technology.

Good luck!!

[JIMinPHX]

Longbow, I understand that a nitro card under the slug would support the base of the wad & prevent the drive key impression. I am not sure that this is desirable for best accuracy. Perhaps one of the reasons why my accuracy was as good as it was, had something to do with the fact that the wad deformed rather than the base of the slug. Perhaps a slug that got a gentle push & retained it's original shape better, then flew better?

...Just a thought that I offer for additional discussion.

[longbow]

Jim:

I can't argue there. Lee's intent with the drive key was to both prevent the wad from blowing into the base and also to provide a positive engagement for rifled guns so the slug didn't skid inside the shotcup. With soft lead, the slugs do obturate so I doubt skidding would be an issue anyway ~ my opinion. I have not shot then in a rifled gun so cannot compare accuracy with and without the nitro card wad or with hard or soft lead. I am a smoothbore guy. I have found that the nitro card wad does help in my smoothbores though.

That one drive key rib does not prevent all wads from finding their way into the hollow base or from cracking or severe distortion so one has to check wads and use what works. Some may work well without the nitro card wad. I have very limited selection of wads locally... like none so use what I can get which is Winchester AA and Pacific Versalite right now. Apparently the Federal wads are very good and then one could start with Lee's suggested wads too.

As for obturating, yes, the soft lead Lees do distort quite a bit in my experience so get even shorter and fatter and I have recovered soft Lee slugs others have shot that have wad impressions in an uneven skirt.

I have been casting mine from range scrap which is about the same hardness as ACWW. I have not yet recovered one of my Lee slugs cast from wheelweights (too much snow) but I found with other hollow base designs that not only was a thick skirt required but heat treating as well to prevent skirt distortion.

So, a slower powder and moderate load would certainly help and if skirt distortion is a problem with soft lead then a harder alloy and possibly heat treated would help. If the wads look okay without a nitro card wad then that should be good.

My experience with smoothbores anyway. I am still working on loads and learning as I go... learning slowly and getting punch drunk from recoil!

Longbow

[JIMinPHX]

I was shooting from an 18-1/2" smooth bore. I cast from cable sheath, which came up about 6.5bnh. My fired slugs were all distorted badly upon impact, so I could not accurately evaluate them for base deformation upon firing.

[LUTNIT]

I just shot a bunch of Lee 1oz slugs yesterday with a combination of plain plastic wads, wads with 1x .125" 20ga nitro card, and 2x .125" 20ga nitro card. My slugs are cast from WW's and water dropped so probably quite hard.

These where moderate to firm loads over 40gr of Bluedot out of a 22" smooth bore 870 with cylinder bore choke.

The bare plastic wads and wads with 1x nitro card both grouped about 5" at 50yds. The recovered wads where interesting. The plain wads had all 4 petals intact but the wad had obviously flowed into the base with an imprint of the key drive part clearly engraved deep into the plastic. The wads that used a nitro card had pristine bases in the shot cups that, if you removed the crushed accordion part and dirty petals, would look brand new.

The loads with 2x nitro cards where all over the map. Not all of them hit the board and I would guess about a 24" group at 50yds. No idea what went wrong here.

I didn't have my chrony out but I have checked the loads with just the wad and no nitro cards before and it was around 1400fps. I had two sets of 5 of each slug load, 5 for smooth bore and 5 for my rifled barrel, but when I got to the range I realized I had forgotten the rifled barrel beside my computer desk at home. Will have to test those some other time.

[longbow]

LUTNIT:

The groups you got running 5" at 50 yards are not bad. You might improve on those groups some but like I said, my experience with Lee slugs is a bit limited so far.

I have to think that the wild loads with 2 nitro card wads are due to fit. The petals of the wads are tapered so the higher the slug sits the looser the fit. Even at that though I would not have thought it would make that much difference. The worst groups I have gotten with slugs are from the Lyman Foster slugs but even those were 12" to 18" at 50 yards. So, I guess I have no idea either. It seems a little strange that the slugs would go so wild.

You might try a softer alloy to see how that goes and also check fit to barrel in wads or try different wads.

Having said that, if plain wads and with one nitro card wad is working for you then you are good.

What wads are you using?

It will be interesting to see how they perform in the rifled barrel.

Keep us posted.

Longbow

[LUTNIT]

For the plain wad I'm using WAA12 wads (orange ones).
For the nitro card loads I needed some more room in the hull so I used Claybuster clones of the WAA12R wads. Red ones with really short legs I normally use for 00 buckshot.
The taper in the wads was my guess upon further contemplation on the subject. I thought perhaps the slug and cards where sliding around laterally inside the shot cup giving really poor consistency. Regardless I found a load that works suitably in my smooth bore so now just to experiment with the rifled barrel. I have tried slugs in bare wads before and it didn't work at all. Only 1 in 5 or so where on paper and I was finding the wads on the ground with torn off pedals. I have read about people having much better luck with a nitro card in there and wanted to test it. Also on the test list are .685" round balls over cards with buffer under them through both rifled and smooth.

[Chicken Thief]

I have shopped a little and done some samples for this sunday.

Frim left:
12 gauge 1Oz from siarm.com
Another 12 gauge 1Oz from siarm.com
.675" ball in shotcup
.735" ball

All loaded in 76mm hulls and with 40 grains Vv N105
I have developed a theory regarding inaccurasy. If i use 70mm hulls then the ball/bullet and wad coloumn will have to jump at least 6½-7mm to get from hull to forcing cone. That cant be good?
So all my loading is done in 76mm hulls from now on.


www.siarm.com has a lot of interesting slugs and i intend to buy 10 of almost each and test them in my rifle.
http://www.siarm.com/index.php?cPath=2_20_164_60

They have "wads" for 2 and 3 balls, anybody tried them?

[longbow]

Chicken Thief:

Those wads for multi ball look pretty slick!

I haven't tried them but would like to. Do you know what size balls they are for... hmmm, I guess I should try the link you included but if you have any first hand info that would be appreciated.

I just lost my job today so I will have some time to catch up on slug testing, at least until i run out of components and have to buy something. I have enough for a while though so hopefully will get some testing done.

I will be very interested to see how your testing goes too. Interesting looking slugs.

How are your Brennekes doing? I haven't seen any posts in a while.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Yeah those ball "wads" sure look interesting
I dont know the dimensions but i'll order some and then we'll know.

Well ehhhh ummmm Brenneke slugs hmmm.
The dies has died and i dont want to make them again.

When i can buy finished ones (original Brenneke that is) for under $1/piece.
And many interesting designs down to 40 cents a pop.

[longbow]

Chicken Thief:

Are those Brennekes loaded rounds or component slugs? Either way a little pricey for much shooting (I'm cheap).

I haven't seen Brenneke components for many years here (Canada and small town Canada at that).

I like to cast and roll my own both to save money and because it is "fun".

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Oh, it's not for mass shooting!
I have .735" balls for plinking and my modified Foster slug for work.
It's pure experimenting and fun.

I brought 5 to the range sunday.
690grain hard cast over 90gr Vv N110.
A QL guestimate says something like 600m/s~1940fps and 7.8kj~5.7kftlbs
Lets just say that our glutton for punishment took all five but he took the last three under protest.
Just vague sighs of pressure on 2 out of 5 cases.

Got a riot shot from a friend. Rubber ball in Cheditte case



Here you can faintly see the umpteen wads of different colour between powder and ball.

Bottom/Left: powder, white wad, black wad, white wad, black wad and finally ball
Put some markings on so it's easier to see.


We talked about speed and he said less tham 100m/s~330fps

Despite it being non lethal noone would put their behind up for a shot [IMG]http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/***.gif[/IMG]

[Cap'n Morgan]

Interesting slugs, C.Thief. Especially the "vortex" on the left.

I've been doing a small amount of testing with my scoped Krieghoff. Using the machined hard plastic wads I can keep the groups within 4" at 50 meters all day long. I haven't done any long range testing, but common sense tells me the the best I can hope for is 8-10" at a hundred meters and that's a best-case scenario where the slugs follow a linear dispersion pattern.
When I find the time for it I will run some test with machined helical ribbed wads and if it shows signs of improving the groups, it's time for a new mold with helical ribs & some sort of "propeller head". If a baseball can be made to change course (spitball) just by rubbing spit or Vaseline on it, then helical ribs must have some influence on a slug in flight.

Right now I'm working on a thingamabob of some sort, to facilitate the production of paper pulp wads. My main goal is still a "cheap" solution to the slug problem. The accuracy will probably not match the machined wads, but less will still be good enough . "Five in fifty" - that is, a five inch group at fifty yards will be the benchmark I aim for. Pictures to follow...

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

It has been a while! Glad to see you are still at it.

I have been working on new slugs as well and should have some loaded shortly. I will be testing some more copper skirted slugs with modified skirts that hopefully don't tear out the sides of hulls this time (no sharp edges), round balls on copper skirts, some Fosters and some other Brenneke style slugs.

Personally I do not believe that helical ribs produce any significant rotation but that is my opinion. Brenneke claims their ribbed slugs do not rotate but then BPI says the helical vanes on their AQ slugs do cause rotation. I beg to differ because the recovered AQ slugs I got had almost no vanes left after compression in the bore at firing. Also considering that these vanes/ribs are following along in a partial vacuum behind the shockwave. I suspect there is little if any induced rotation. Again, my opinion only. Fact is Brennekes and AQ's and Gualandi slugs all produce very good accuracy however they do it.

Certainly if you can easily machine helical ribs there is no harm in trying, they just might help and any improvement is good. If nothing else they look really good!

I am getting 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with good round ball loads but not so good at 100 yards ~ round balls do tend to pick up random spins from drag. you may well be right and 4" to 5" 50 yard slug groups might run 8" to 10" at 100 yards but that is not horrible and if the accuracy holds, you should be able to get those 50 yard groups down to at least round ball groups of 3" to 4" so that would be 6" to 8" at 100 yards. I have a friend in new Jersey that has some slugs that give around 2" groups at 50 yards so if that holds to 100 yards we are looking at 4" or maybe a little larger but pretty good at 100 yards.

I could live with that! I just have not accomplished it yet. trying, always trying just not there yet.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Did a little shooting today using homemade paper pulp wads together with some 1/4" seal wads (thanks for the Siarm link, C. Thief) I can now state with absolute, 100% certainty that when it comes to Brenneke style slugs, a poor quality wad is far worse than no wad at all! At fifty meters half the shots would miss a 2x2' target And to make things even worse I didn't pay enough attention to my trusty ol' hunting jacket I was using for rest and blew a nice chunk out of it.

.

However, every dark cloud has a silver lining. I also loaded five slugs, using the same paper pulp wads, but without attaching them to the slug and this combination gave a nice 6" group at fifty meters. Certainly good enough that I'll explore the concept further - not having to tinker with screws & fixtures would be really nice. I think the reason the pulp wads work well is that they are molded to match the inner profile of the slug, giving it a stable support against slumping during takeoff. The "five in fifty" may well be within reach.

So far I have tried several powder types, from Herco over Blue Dot to Steel, but I'm still getting incomplete burn no matter how hard I crimp/roll the shells. Today it finally dawned on me that I probably should be using magnum primers and not the regular CCI 209 I've been using so far... that means another 100 mile trip. This slug-craze is going to be a costly affair before it's over...

[longbow]

Hahahahaha! Slug load development costly? Say it isn't so! I have shot hundreds of pounds of lead downrange and absorbed enough accumulated recoil to move a mountain I think. I am still working on trying to get better groups than with the good 'ol round ball. I have burned up pounds of powder and lots of gas going to and from the range too. I try not to think about cost but the "adventure" and "learning experience".

Your "five in fifty" is reasonably easily attainable with round ball and good slug loads. I started out at 8" to 12" groups at 50 yards with the Lyman Foster and worked my way down to 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with round balls and a few slug loads (NOT Lyman Foster slugs!). My goal was 4" to 6" at 100 yards and round balls from smoothbore just aren't likely to do that. The best of my slug loads might... maybe. I have had AQ slugs produce 6"+/- a bit groups at 100 yards but not home made slugs.

An excellent slug I shot was the Rapine full bore TC hollow base slug. One of few hollow base slugs that has done well for me. I got several 2' to 3" groups at 50 yards but next time out got a flier or two and a keyhole. Go figure ~ same load, same slug, same gun, same range, same shooter.

I will hopefully be testing my best round ball loads and slug loads from 50 yards, 75 yards and 100 yards soon. I know the round balls tend to pick up spin from drag and groups get larger fairly quickly after 50 yards or so but I will find out the maximum range for dependable group size.

Anyway, as for powder, I have had good success with Blue Dot under round balls and slugs as light as 1 oz. and as heavy as 800 grs. I figured there wouldn't be enough resistance to build pressure under a 1 oz slug but no problem so far. The only time I have had noticeable problems with Blue Dot was when I did not use a plastic gas seal, then I got incomplete burn.

Lately though I have been using IMR4756 and it seems to me to be a little better and cleaner than Blue Dot. Not a big difference but I'd say a "sharper" crack and recoil for same weight and velocity of slug so maybe better burn? No complaints with Blue Dot though.

Unique would be a good choice too I think. I have used Unique under Lyman Foster slugs and also AQ slugs. I am a fan of Unique though it isn't best for top end slug loads.

Yes, your pulp wads probably do provide a good support and a bit of cushioning for the slugs since they are nicely form fitting. Good idea. If your slugs are a good fit to the bore (slightly oversize is best I think) they look to be weight forward enough to fly pretty well so you may just have a winner there.

Something you might also try is to add a hot melt glue "skirt" by making a form to put the slug into then add the hot melt glue. Since your slugs are bore size they would either have to be paper patched or glue poured into paper tubes so there is no glue/bore contact. I have tried both and had decent success. These are an AQ type slug. Not sure it would be any better than your machined wads though. They looked great! It is just another option to try. My wad slugs with glue skirts have shown promise and will be tested again. The glue is somewhat flexible and seems to "obturate" in the shotcups probably making for a very good bore fit. Recovered slugs show the petal splits in the glue skirt. In any case, they have been working quite well so far.

Costly affair... you betcha! But it is fun isn't it?

Good luck and don't give up.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longshot,

I'm not quittin' just yet! This has become PERSONAL and there's still a lot of things to try.

I think I'll give your hot glue a try. Have you tried replacing the glue with polypropylene? (what wads are made from) The melting point is about the same as some of the glues. Polypropylene can be re-melted over and over, it should be possible to "cast" it into sticks that would fit a hot glue gun - this would eliminate the need for a wrapper. Also, polypropylene will not stick to a metal surface, making molding much easier. A short dry wall screw in the rear of the slug would act as a strong internal lock between slug & wad.

Sadly, we scrapped an old injection molding machine at work last year. Otherwise I could have made an injection mold for a dedicated slug wad. Hmmm... maybe it was just as well the machine was scrapped, this project is starting to have a life of its own

[longbow]

Cap'n:

I understand the "PERSONAL" aspect of this quest. It has become a challenge to beat the slugs at their own game. Unfortunately the little lumps of lead appear to be somewhat smarter than I am. I haven't been beaten yet and I have had some good successes but not enough. I keep trying. Now to try out the best of what has worked so far.

No I haven't tried polypropylene. I had some hot melt glue that was very much like polypropylene though ~ more plastic like than glue like when hard. I figured it had a percentage of plastic in it and it was very acid resistant when used in sulphuric acid (I was testing it for edge stick adhesion for aluminum cathodes in a zinc plant). I got the left overs and home they went.

What I have now is a high strength hot melt glue that is quite hard and slick when set and it works well but I don't dare let it rub the bore. I have only used it either for wad slugs which I grease before loading or for casting into paper tubes around the slug. Both do work and it eliminates the screw connection. I seem to get better wad integrity with the glue than with add on wads.

Your description of a screw in the butt of the slug is exactly how I make my solid TC slugs with glue skirts. Next revision will have a shallow hollow base to provide more glue area so I an avoid using the screw.

I tried making slugs like AQ's with a 3/8" diameter hole in the slug then cast on glue skirt and some actually broke at the glue "peg" ~ probably at impact but still it made me wonder.

I have had better results with flat based solids with a screw than with the hole and glue "peg".

More testing to be done.

if you have access to polypropylene then that sounds like a good thing to try. I wonder though ~ does it stick to lead if melted and poured on? I suspect it doesn't so would need a very good anchor. Now with your long slugs, tipping is not likely to be a problem so maybe not and issue. Also, you have the hollow base to help support the connection. My solids are quite short and just have the flat base with screw. Recovered slugs generally have the skirt still attached unless they are badly chewed up and the glue seems to stick well. I shot one through an 8" poplar tree and found it in the bank behind with skirt still solidly attached.

Anyway, give that polypropylene a go. Sounds like an interesting idea.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Went to the range today.

The storebought slugs did'nt shoot worth spit!
Patterns that fit a A4 page at 50m
The cupped .675" balls shot a 4" group for 5.
The full bore .735" balls shot into a 2½" group for 5.
And that from my rifled 24" barrel.
Oh, almost forgot 76mm hulls and 40 grains of Vv N105

[silas oberhauser]

what about paper blended to a pulp and mixed with elmers glue for sabots/ wads? would it be stronger and less likely to destort? also what if you made a mould similar to a bullet mould full bore with a cavity in the front the size of your bullet? i cant seem to add the picture of what i am talking about but you would use melted plastic bottles to fill the mould with. i have tested this material in and it seems about the right hardness. i t says the picture is to big, i made the picture on paint how do i shrink it?