Loading homemade slugs

[longbow]

Well, I hope you guys do better than I did yesterday!

I just posted results of yet another failure. It turns out that the nice flare I put on the copper Brenneke skirts was a bit narrow and sharp resulting in grabbing the hulls and tearing chunks out! Bad juju that!

I will try changing the flare to a cylindrical section if I can as that should eliminate the grabbing and as another test, I will use unflared tube and ball in a shotcup. So two more range reports to come.

I am depending on you guys for some successes at this point!

Cap'n Morgan and Chicken Thief ~ you guys both have good slug designs going here but the wad/skirt is the issue I have not yet solved so I hope you do.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

I have to eat some humblepie now longbow!
I thought this would be a walk in the park, but no

Powder i got from a 24gram steel skeet round.
All shots at 50m~55yds, thats where the beast lives and grouping starts to fall through.

First test: .735" roundball + screwed on plastic wad. Clearly elongated holes from the wads but the best "group" i think. The shift is because i changed point of aim.


Second test: .735" oundball + screwed on felt wad. It shot way high so only 3 hits on target.


Thierd test: Swaged boolit + screwed on feltwad between 2 card wads.


Next week will be some of my originally homemade slugs and roundballs without wads. Just to get groups for future reference.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Tough luck, guys! I'm beginning to think we're in for a long haul... My groups pretty much resembles The Thief's, not really bad, but not stellar either.

One thing is buggering me, though. I keep reading about the helical ribs of the Brenneke slug, and how it's not actually stabilizing the slug - even Brenneke's homepage says so. Well, maybe so, but even a slow rotation should improve accuracy since it would keep the slug from drifting off on a vector, and instead keep it in a constant "barrel roll" around a center path - Just like helical fletching will aid a crooked arrow in flight. From what I can tell from the targets my slugs are pretty well stabilized. The holes are round and shows no excessive sign of wobbling. I'll do some more testing, but if things doesn't improve I'll try with a helical rib design.

[Chicken Thief]

If it dont aid stability then why are they askew?

[longbow]

The Gualandi DGS slug shoots very well and doesn't have "vanes". I don't believe that the Brenneke helical grooves have any significant effect.

The BPI AQ slug is one of the most accurate slugs I have shot and it is simply drag stabilized with a long plastic attached wad. It does have helical vanes but recovered slugs show that those vanes are non existent after shooting. Also they are operating in a partial vacuum due to the shock wave.

My opinion anyway.

I still think the big secret to success is a solid and consistent basewad.

Chicken Thief ~ are you shooting rifled or smoothbore?

With naked 0.735" round ball on a HARD card wad column I get 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards from smoothbore and got several 2" +/- a bit groups using a borrowed rifled gun. I emphasize HARD card wad column because I tried cushion legs with shotcup petals cut off, fiber wads and a few others and the only thing that worked for me was a hard card wad column and that worked well!

I reworked my punch and die set to make a cylindrical bearing surface in the copper tube so it shouldn't dig into the hull next time. I will also try to make up some to fit into shotcups which has so far been my easiest route for loading and good accuracy.

I may even break out my straight ribbed Brenneke mould again and try with different basewads. Stacked nitro card wads did not work for me, they delaminate and get ragged edges.

In my opinion, there is no humble pie to be eaten, this is a tough road to good and consistent smoothbore slug shooting accuracy. Every time I figure I am onto something I get unexplained and unacceptable flyers... except with round balls. I even had a Gualandi DGS slug keyhole at 50 yards. Also, recovered DGS slugs showed that they suffer damage from the cushion leg ramming into them and they distort in the barrel.

As Thomas Edison said "I haven't failed, I have found ten thousand ways that don't work". I think I am working on more than ten thousand but you get the drift!

My experience anyway.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

longbow

I didnt cheat, i actually bought a smoothbore barrel, so i can shoot on equal terms with ya'll!
This sunday our testing area are used for competition so nothing until sunday 17.
I will shoot this storebought slugs for comparison.
Remington Slugger
Winchester Super X
Rottweil Brenneke

[Cap'n Morgan]

It will be interesting to see what the factory loads can do. I managed to find a dozen cartridges, half made by Rottweill and half by FN Legia, both loaded with the "Original Brenneke" slug. They are some thirty or forty years old and only 67.5mm long (2.66") Like you, I'll shoot them for comparison.

I took one apart and made an exact 3D model from it. The diameter is 18.6mm (0.732) and the wad is a full 19mm (0.748) - perhaps this is a clue to their performance? Of course, it could also be a result of the cartridges being way over their "Best before..." date The slug weight, including wad was only 31g (475 grains) - Sissy loads!

What's the weight of your factory loads?

[Chicken Thief]

1 ounzers (28.3gram) for the lot.

[longbow]

Hahahahahaha! You are in for a challenge now Chicken Thief! At least if you testing goes anything like mine.

I have had quite good results from factory Foster rounds, especially Remington Slugger and Federal Tru-Ball, and some purchased slugs Brenneke, AQ and Gualandi. Now I am going crazy trying to get that accuracy from home cast home loaded rounds. I have not been successful and I am developing a twitch due to the frustration!

I have come close and I have had some successes but so far the successes have required way more work than I will put into shotgun slugs for anything but a few tests. I am trying to come up with an easy to make slug that will give decent accuracy out to 100 yards. AQ does, Federal Tru-Ball does, Remington Sluggers do... but my home made slugs have not made it yet. Grrrrrr! But I am still trying.

I am hoping one of you two find the secret then share... please share!

Good luck. In all honesty, it is fun trying.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Just had an opiifoni eppi epipo...... brainfart!
Maybe the screw is a big culprit regarding failed accuracy?
So i thought this up:





Let the attached wad flex as it wants and let the bottom wad take all the pressure and gas sealing.
longbow, ya'll thunk of that?

[longbow]

Again, my experience only, but I suspect that long cushion leg will not leave the barrel the same each time ~ too much leg to crush and distort.

I have tried several standard cushion legs cut off wads then screwed onto slugs but recovered slugs indicated "random" compression/rebound" of cushion legs ~ accuracy was not good. Gregg Sappington sent me some steel wads with thick petal shotcups. I thought I had a good attached wad slug using one of those with a press fit slug over about 4 nitro card wads. I thought the cushion leg looked very much like the Gualandi DGS leg.

They stayed together but again, accuracy was not too good and recovered slugs showed uneven crushing/rebound of the leg (no screw through them). Another closer check showed that the Gualandi cushion leg is much more "robust".

So, I think the idea is good but the cushion leg may not perform. It is certainly worth trying though.

My feeling is that a solid plastic leg like Cap'n Morgan's is the way to go but I am not about to machine every wad for my slugs. I am too lazy for that! My attached wads are now hot melt glue poured into forms. That is fairly easy to do and so far is giving reasonable results but no better than round ball loads at 50 yards.

I have been wrong before though... many, many times! In fact I think I am on the road to find every idea that doesn't work.

Like I said, it is good to see others in this game and I hope at least one of us is successful!

Good luck.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Alright, it's been a while since last update, but experiments are still ongoing.

First, I decided to try another gun to see if it would improve groups. So far I've been using my semi auto Beretta as it can be mounted with a holo-sight. I decided to give my trusty ol' Krieghoff O/U a chance, but I didn't expect much as it has extremely long forcing cones - about two inches, and both barrels has improved modified chokes. Nevertheless, the first five shot group at 30 meters was a mere 2-1/2 inch. Things was starting to look promising! When examining the target it was clear that at least two of the slugs had shed their skirt, even though they had been tightly screwed to the slug. One of the wads had struck the target at least a foot from the group, indicating that it must have separated as soon as the slug was clear of the barrel. It's obvious that the slugs are pretty stable on their own and perhaps the skirt isn't necessary at all.

Well, on to the next project. Since the whole idea is to keep things simple, I went straight to plan B: Paper mache wads. It's actually pretty simple. Some water, some newspaper and a slightly oversize mold to compensate for shrinkage.





The newspaper is boiled for a few minutes until it resembles oatmeal porridge. Once the mixture has cooled you can squeeze most of the water from it. Then the gooey mess can be mashed into the mold and then left to dry for 24 hours. Once semi-dry the wads can easily be pushed out of the mold, they are still pretty fragile and must dry for at least 24 hours more. When fully dried, the wads are extremely hard and can probably be made even tougher by impregnating with hat varnish or something similar.



I picked up the three wads in the foreground some twenty yards from the muzzle. Even though the base of the wad has taken some punishment, the top is still intact and has protected the base of the slug as intented even though this batch of slugs was cast from almost pure lead.




This four shot, four inch group was shot at forty meters (44 yards) Not half-bad, considering the Krieghoff has no proper sights, only a large front bead. Certainly good enough for the intended purpose of these slugs: running boars within fifty meters.

There's still a lot to be tried. Like Longbow, I would like a slug which can be used out to a hundred yards with decent accuracy, but first I need to attach a scope to the Krieghoff - my eyes are not quite up to the task of open sights at hundred yards.

[longbow]

Things are looking up! Keep up the good work Cap'n Morgan.

I have to get out to do some more testing too but not this weekend unfortunately. The road to our range is closed due to break up ~ it gets really muddy and soft this time of year so will be closed for a week or two.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Well gangwars in Denmark has put a hold to my "research".
They have shot up a range after closing time and Police are going ape$h!7 all over the place.
So much so that my local "do it all" range is down to max. 223 and BP calibers for rifles, and shotguns is flat out a big no-no.
But we'll see.

100m from a smooth bore is a big mouthfull, no?
A 100m 4-5" group i will expect from my rifle barrel but from a nano-rifling bore, i would flat out say, cant be done.
But please proof me wrong. And i'll continue to do my research in the dark

[JIMinPHX]

100m from a smooth bore is a big mouthfull, no?
A 100m 4-5" group i will expect from my rifle barrel but from a nano-rifling bore, i would flat out say, cant be done.

Back when I loaded Lee slugs in a 12 bore & shot them from a cylinder choked pump gun, I had surprisingly good results. I think that it might be possible to get sub 6" groups at 100M with a smooth bore. Unfortunately, I no longer have that gun or the facilities to make the tests.

[longbow]

Jim:

I have been striving to get 6" groups at 100 yards and would be happy with them! Ever since I read in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual that the Lyman Foster slug could produce 4" groups at 100 yards I have had visions of a "poor man's" Paradox gun in the form of a side by 12 ga. with rifle sights. However, excepting for a few factory Foster slugs and AQ slugs I have been unable to get consistent reasonable groups at 100 yards.

I found that the Lyman Foster is so far undersize (0.705") that it has to upset to fill the bore unless patched to bore size. I have not gotten anything resembling accuracy from it but recent discussions with a fellow in the know is leading me to some new tests with a more solid wad column. We will see how that goes.

The plain 'ol round ball does well to 50 yards or a bit better and in fact for me the round ball has provided superior accuracy to most slugs to 50 yards! I am getting 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with round balls. A couple of exceptions are slugs that have given about 2" groups at 50 yards... but then a random wild flier shows up!

So far my Lee Drive Key slugs are running about 6" at 50 yards but I haven't done a lot of work with them yet. I have shot them as cast and also with an attached basewad "Brenneke" style. The modified Lee did better than as cast but again, I haven't shot enough to get sorted out.

As for slugs, I am heading down the solid route as I do not like hollow base slugs. So solid with attached wad is the direction I am going. So far pretty good results but no better at 50 yards than round balls, but they may do better at longer range. yet to be tested!

Chicken Thief:

While I am still trying, I believe 4" to 6" groups are possible with good slugs and a solid gun. I have shot Federal Factory Foster slugs that gave groups of about 6" at 100 yards and I bought some BPI AQ slugs for reloading that also produced groups of slightly larger than 6" at 100 yards. I think the various attached wad slugs provide the best chance for long range accuracy ~ like Brenneke, Vit Boos, Gualandi and a few others. Now getting a home made clone to shoot as well as those factory loads is the trick! Easier said than done in my experience! But I am still trying. That is why it is good to see you and Cap'n Morgan working in the same direction. If we all put our heads together we may beat this thing!

Happy shooting!

Longbow

[JIMinPHX]

I got good accuracy using 18.5 grains of Green Dot & a pink Winchester wad that had the petals cut down part way. I was roll crimping. You can see my petal cutting method here - castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?86712-moderate-load-data-for-Lee-slugs/page3

This load only gave me around 1,000fps, but the wads that I recovered were still pretty beat up & the drive key impression was unmistakable. I think that punching up the pressure for more speed would have required a stronger wad to prevent from having wad related accuracy issues that were rooted in deformed wads giving the slug an uneven push out of the barrel. That's my expectation anyway. I never pushed them harder than that, so I don't actually know for sure.

[longbow]

Jim:

The way to beat the Drive Key "impression" is to put a nitro card wad under the slug. That fixes things up pretty good. I use 16 ga. but 20 ga. work too.

My loads were somewhat hotter than yours and I really haven't played much with the Lee slug yet. I did make some into attached wad slugs and groups were smaller than with as cast but again, I haven't shot enough to draw any real conclusions.

Longbow

[dverna]

Capt

I was able to mount an EoTech sight on my K-80 using a rib mount (B-Square I believe). The allen screws tend to loosen and mark up the rib if tightened too much so I solved the problem by using epoxy to fill the hole between the area under the rib where the "clamps" are secured. I coated the rib area well with grease and was able to remove the epoxy without damage to the rib after shooting the gun for a few months. The set up worked for over 2000 rounds without issue. Regrettably, this is not an "on-off" system so you cannot revert back to the rib easily. I was experimenting with shooting American Trap with the EoTech but my average continued to be better with a standard rib so I abandoned the idea. The EoTech took the recoil of 12 ga loads with no issues. If you "need" a spare barrel for your K-80 let me know. I have two spare barrels - Unsingle (choke tubed) and O/U (IM/F).

[Cap'n Morgan]

Dverna,

Thanks for your input. The wheels has been turning and this is what I came up with. Things are so much easier when you have access to top-modern machine shop:





As you can see it's basically a picatinny rail. It's held in place by two eccentric pins. The rail has a milled slot that match the width of the rib exactly. When turned 180 degree, the pins pull the rail tight to the rib and take up any slack there might bee. The mount can be removed and re-installed in no time. The scope is an almost forty years old Leupold M8 x2, but it's still going strong - the eye relief is just right for the job.

I can understand why you gave up on the Eotech. In my opinion the balance in a shotgun is easily ruined once you heap weight on top of it. If anything, I prefer the much smaller Doctor holo-sight, but you'll still need some sort of comb riser to account for the added height.

Now the sight problem is out of the way, I can concentrate on the slugs. The plan is to test at least three different combinations:

A "heavi-slug" based on my hollow-base slug with a solid, machined plastic wad screwed on. Total weight 570 grains.

A "Lite-slug" with a screwed-on wad made from paper pulp. total weight around 500 grains.

Same as above, but the slug & wad are just stacked on top of each other - no screw. In all the loads a plastic seal wad will be placed over the powder. Still waiting for the seals to arrive from Italy along with some other goodies.