can you make priming compound?

[Zymurgy50]

NRA had at one time a book titled "Ammunition Making" that pretty much detailed every step of the process from powder and primer manufacturing to drawing brass cases.



most non-corrosive primers use lead styphnate as explosive mix, with ground glass for friction in 22lr cases.

[ofitg]

Is it better to use shellac flakes dry and then wet out the whole mixture with alcohol, or make up the mix and then wet it with prepared shellac? I tried the latter and got 100% misfires. The mix wouldn't even work by hitting it with a hammer. I assume I used way too much shellac.

-Nobade

Nobade, my "recipe" for the Span-Am War mix -

I pre-mix the potassium chlorate with sodium bicarbonate in a 25:1 ratio - eg, 2.5 oz of potassium chlorate to 0.1 oz of sodium bicarbonate - add a few spoons of water to form a "ketchup" consistency, stir thoroughly, then dry.

Weigh out the following dry ingredients -

17 grains of the potassium chlorate/sodium bicarbonate powder
9 grains of antimony sulfide
3 grains of sulfur
4 grains of fine sand (passes through a 40-mesh screen)

These dry ingredients are then mixed - a safe way is to pour them back and forth between two pieces of paper.

Next I add 1/3 CC (the small LEE powder measure) of Zinsser "Bulls Eye" clear liquid shellac from the hardware store. This product is advertised to be 21% shellac solids by volume. This works out to almost one grain of shellac solids per 33 grains of dry ingredients - almost 3% concentration, but it works fine.

Next I add enough denatured alcohol to achieve a "toothpaste" consistency for loading... since I'm loading percussion caps instead of primers for metallic cartridges, the subsequent steps are not applicable to this thread.

[perotter]

NRA had at one time a book titled "Ammunition Making" that pretty much detailed every step of the process from powder and primer manufacturing to drawing brass cases.



most non-corrosive primers use lead styphnate as explosive mix, with ground glass for friction in 22lr cases.

There is a link to the G. Frost book in digital format in post #127 of this thread. Lately I seen someone asking over $500 for a used paper copy. It has been out of print for several years and the NRA seems, as of a couple of years ago, to not want to do a reprint.

I have a couple of copies in paper form. There is nothing really on making powder. So for those who download it and see that there is nothing on the topic, it isn't missing. It was never there.

When it comes to powder, George wrote that the powder company will tell you what to use that will fit your desires. He did know how powder was made, selected and so forth. But considered power making outside the scope ammunition making.

He did work on perfecting the process of going from making ball powder for military use to commercial use. The problem was how to make(using today powder numbers) a batch 296, then a batch of 780 and then a batch of 748.

[perotter]

Nobade, my "recipe" for the Span-Am War mix -

I pre-mix the potassium chlorate with sodium bicarbonate in a 25:1 ratio - eg, 2.5 oz of potassium chlorate to 0.1 oz of sodium bicarbonate - add a few spoons of water to form a "ketchup" consistency, stir thoroughly, then dry.

Weigh out the following dry ingredients -

17 grains of the potassium chlorate/sodium bicarbonate powder
9 grains of antimony sulfide
3 grains of sulfur
4 grains of fine sand (passes through a 40-mesh screen)

These dry ingredients are then mixed - a safe way is to pour them back and forth between two pieces of paper.

Next I add 1/3 CC (the small LEE powder measure) of Zinsser "Bulls Eye" clear liquid shellac from the hardware store. This product is advertised to be 21% shellac solids by volume. This works out to almost one grain of shellac solids per 33 grains of dry ingredients - almost 3% concentration, but it works fine.

Next I add enough denatured alcohol to achieve a "toothpaste" consistency for loading... since I'm loading percussion caps instead of primers for metallic cartridges, the subsequent steps are not applicable to this thread.

Thanks for the detailed info. I've never tried shellac and never seen it in the store. I'll have to be on the lookout for it. I do have a question. How long have you been able to store these? More out of curiosity than anything else and the desire to not reinvent the wheel. Shelf life isn't a real big deal to me.

[perotter]

Here is some about making and using primer plates that is wrote up. This hasn't been proofed by anyone and there may be a few things wrong. Don't be shy about pointing anything that is questionable. If it is really bad, I'm not to proud to delete it. Also, there is better information about doing this than what I have here.

One can make this any size they want. One doesn't have to fill all the holes, just one row or something. I also have a none matched plate the has a total of six holes. Three are for large, three are for small and space about 1 inch apart. I use that for when I want to try just a couple of some mix.

Drill pattern for the plates.

A x

B x x x x x

C x x x x x

D x x x x x

E x x x x x

F x x x x x

G x


1. Space 3/8 or 10mm between X's and edges. More distance doesn't hurt.
2. Drill at least 3 stacked plates at the same time.
A. One will be for holding the cup.
B. One is for wet primer mix.
C. One is for the anvils, as a guide for removing the dent left by the firing pin and mix packer, and as paper punch.
3. Drill A and G first using a 1/8 drill. These are the index holes
4. Hold the 3 plates together with 1/8 rolled pin(spring pin).
5. Drill B, C, D, E, and F with a 1/8 drill.
6. Remove the rolled pin and seperate the plates.
7. Drill 1 plate to the correct diameter for the cup.
8. Drill 1 plate to the correct diameter for the wet primer mix.
9. Drill 1 plate to the correct diameter for the anvil.

Note:
If you don't want to have different full sets for LR, LP, SR and SP add a 4th plate for the anvil. Then you only need a large primer and small primer set.

To use for dry mix:

1. Put primers in the cup plate.
2. Remove anvils.
3. Put guide plate on and remove the dents in the cups.
4. Remove the guide plate.
5. Put a generous quanity of mix on the cup plate.
6. Level the mix over the cups with a bussiness card(etc).
7. Place the guide/anvil plate over on the cup plate.
8. Pack the mix with your pack pin.
9. Put anvils in the guide/anvil plate.
10. Press the anvil into the cups.
11. Remove the guide/anvil plate.
12. Place a piece of heavy paper, card board, etc over the cup plate.
13. Turn the plate upside down.
14. Lift the cup plate.
15. Place a piece of heavy paper, card board, etc over the primers.
16. Turn the 2 over.
17. The primer anvils will now be facing up and ready for laquer to be applied.

[Nobade]

Yes, thanks for the mix. I'll have to give that one a try.

-Nobade

[ofitg]

Thanks for the detailed info. I've never tried shellac and never seen it in the store. I'll have to be on the lookout for it. I do have a question. How long have you been able to store these? More out of curiosity than anything else and the desire to not reinvent the wheel. Shelf life isn't a real big deal to me.

Perotter, here's a photo of the can -



In May 2011 I loaded up a few dozen caps, using two variations on the "Span-Am" recipe. In one variation I pre-mixed the potassium chlorate with sodium bicarbonate, as described above.
In the other variation I pre-mixed the sulfur with sodium bicarbonate - 10 parts sulfur to one part sodium bicarbonate, add water, stir, dry.

Just last weekend I tested 12 of the two-year-old caps, no misfires, but I got the impression that the "potassium chlorate pre-mix" caps were more energetic than the "sulfur pre-mix" caps.
Shelf life seems satisfactory to me, but I live in the Phoenix area, so this wasn't really a humidity torture test.

[SawmillJack]

If there's any interest I can burn up a batch of CD of this:

$15 delivered U.S. only. Sold a bunch of these in this forum in 2008.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...rt-amp-Oelberg

I would really appreciate a chance to buy a copy Dutchman.

[perotter]

Just last weekend I tested 12 of the two-year-old caps, no misfires, but I got the impression that the "potassium chlorate pre-mix" caps were more energetic than the "sulfur pre-mix" caps.
Shelf life seems satisfactory to me, but I live in the Phoenix area, so this wasn't really a humidity torture test.

Thanks for the picture as that will make it easier to find. Two years plus years would satisfy me.

[Desertbuck]

Hi guys!
I am now mixing the mix wet with 90% rubbing alcohol then let the mix dry for 45min, fill primer cup with the now mostly dry mix to the TOP of the primer cup then pack. I next take an eyedropper put one drop of the rubbing alcohol on the primers and let dry. This seems to me anyway to bind the mix ok.
After they have dried I seat the paper disc and anvil.
I loaded just 5rd with my primers but side by side with CCI #200 I could not tell a difference when fired. So they work like a primer should now.
Anyhow I have a question. Will shellac or any binders like the hairspray weaken the primer mix? Like dextran will to Black powder? Do I need a binder to keep the mix in place, or will the method I just described hold up to recoil of shootin and long term storage?

[Oreo]

You might get some of others' thoughts here but you're pioneering new ground sorta. You're probably going to have to develop your own methods mostly.

I have read of shellac being used but I bet there's devils in the details of how. I'll flip through a couple books later and see what they say. I'll let ya know.

[perotter]

The US government mix that was used for the 30/40 Krag had 2% shellac. Last night I didn't find what was used in the 30/06 primers for binder. I don't know about the long term shelf life, but Ofitg's 2 years is good enough for my.

I ran the PEP software for a mix similar to what you are using and added 1% binder. As for power there showed to be 2% reduction in flame temperature(4000 instead of 4100 degrees). There was no real change in the amount of gas or solids produced. What I do know for sure about using a binder, is that the reliability and primer-to-primer consistency is greatly increased. For myself, I'll put in binder if at all possible. Plus, the commercial manufactures aren't putting in a binder because the CEO's brother-in-law owns a gum company.

You might want to try adding shellac or polyvinyl alcohol in that last drop you add. That wouldn't force you to go using wet mix.

[Desertbuck]

The US government mix that was used for the 30/40 Krag had 2% shellac. Last night I didn't find what was used in the 30/06 primers for binder. I don't know about the long term shelf life, but Ofitg's 2 years is good enough for my.

I ran the PEP software for a mix similar to what you are using and added 1% binder. As for power there showed to be 2% reduction in flame temperature(4000 instead of 4100 degrees). There was no real change in the amount of gas or solids produced. What I do know for sure about using a binder, is that the reliability and primer-to-primer consistency is greatly increased. For myself, I'll put in binder if at all possible. Plus, the commercial manufactures aren't putting in a binder because the CEO's brother-in-law owns a gum company.

You might want to try adding shellac or polyvinyl alcohol in that last drop you add. That wouldn't force you to go using wet mix.

Ones again perotter thank you for your help. I know I'm making this more complicated than it should be.
I'm off to get some shellac.

[perotter]

Thanks Desertbuck.

I don't think you are really making it more complicated than it needs to be. You just want to have a good result, just like the rest of us. Somewhere I have what binder and how much was used in the 30/06 mix. It wasn't in the first 2 sources I checked. But when I do find it, I'll post it to this thread. I've bought, photocopied and download everything I've ever found on making primers since I was teen. And that was many years ago. So sometimes I can't lay my hands of the info I've real quick.

[super6]

My guess Is Nitrocellulose lacquer. Ring a bell?

[Bert2368]

A lot of solvents that dissolve NC will also dissolve such things as styphenates, TNT, tetryl & etc. that are used in priming mixes. Alcohol/shellac is a likely candidate for a binder, so are such things as water carried mixtures of gum Arabic & guar gum. The gum Arabic binds and sticks the pellet to the paper disc, the guar gum can be used to control the consistency of the mix, making it less runny for easier handling-

[Just Duke]

That stuff made with KCLO3(potassium chlorate) is also known in the pyrotechnics circles as "death mix"....a pinch of it on a steel plate will detonate if you smack it with a hammer. Some safer mixes use KCL04 (potassium perchlorate) and sulfur and aluminum powder...but would not work in a primer. Another issue is that some sulfur is acidic (from what I read) and mixes made with it over time will break down and deflagrate(burn) on their own, not a good attribute to a priming mixture hehe.

From what I have read most primers are made with the mix wet, and they are then dried under controlled conditions before being ready to use.

Lighting off smokeless is tougher than black, so with a crude primer you might need to use a pinch of black powder back against the primer. Not sure if 209's would be easier to rebuild than boxers or not, they might be, there is more or less a berdan primer built in. The 12 gauge from hell guy says he uses 209's up to I think 35k psi with no issues ?

Bill

Same here.
From what I'm told they are made by hand and squeegee onto a platen full of primer cups.

[Janoosh]

Will this recipe work with/for rimfire cases? I am asking as I have both a 32 and a 25 rimfire rifle. The size of these cases make it easy to remove the firing pin mark. And to reload with Black powder would not strain these rifles nor have ignition problems.

[Desertbuck]

Will this recipe work with/for rimfire cases? I am asking as I have both a 32 and a 25 rimfire rifle. The size of these cases make it easy to remove the firing pin mark. And to reload with Black powder would not strain these rifles nor have ignition problems.

I dont see why it would not work. The mix works real good with my black powder loads. The only thing I can think you need to watchout for is how much mix you put in your case.

[perotter]

Will this recipe work with/for rimfire cases? I am asking as I have both a 32 and a 25 rimfire rifle. The size of these cases make it easy to remove the firing pin mark. And to reload with Black powder would not strain these rifles nor have ignition problems.

The one for the 30/40 Krag might be better or one with even more ground glass in it like Ron Browns. As far as I know all rimfire mixes have about 20%+ ground glass in them.

If I was to reload a rimfire corrosive without knowing what was done years ago, I'd try this:

90 grains of the 30/06 mix
10 grains of ground glass(etc)

See if that didn't work well. If not:

85 grains of the 30/06 mix
15 grains of ground glass(etc)

See if that didn't work well. If not:

80 grains of the 30/06 mix
20 grains of ground glass(etc)

Maybe go in 2.5 grain changes. I've never really paid attention to what the old rimfire mix was. So I'm not sure that I have it anywhere.